Yesterday I debated Robert Spencer at the Conservative Political Action Committee annual conference in Washington D.C. The debate was aired live on C-Span. Our topic was essentially, Is Islam the Problem? My book The Enemy at Home says no, locating the problem in the way that liberal foreign policy and liberal values projected abroad have strengthened radical Islam and emboldened it to attack us. Spencer's books collectively answer yes, the problem is with Islam itself.
But Islam has been around for 1300 years and the problem of Islamic terrorism is a recent one. How can Islam be to blame? For me the intelligent question is: what is it about Islam today that has made it an incubator of a certain kind of fanaticism and terrorism?
Spencer iwill have none of it. He is part of an influential strain of conservatives who blame the teachings and practice of Islam for producing Islamic terrorism. Since the terrorists do what they do on behalf of Islam, Islam must be the source of their convictions and therefore Islam needs to be examined, denounced and reformed. This is how Spencer thinks we can win the war on terror: by demanding that Muslims stop practicing Islam as it has been practiced since Muhammad.
In arguing his thesis Spencer locates all the violent verses in the Koran and all the hideous deeds performed by Islamic conquerors, especially in their early centuries of irredentist expansion. Then he links these to the words and actions of Khomeini, Bin Laden and today's Islamic radicals. Spencer is an effective polemicist.
But his historical argument is dubious. It emphasizes violent passages in the Koran, while downplaying the passages that urge peace and goodwill. It applies a moral standard to Islamic empires (they didn't give minorities full rights! they reduced Jews and Christians to second class citizens!) that certainly could not be met by the Roman empire or the empires established by the Portuguese, the Spanish, the French and the British. In the Spain of Ferdinand and Isabella, for example, Jews had three choices: convert to Christianity, leave the country, or be killed. No Muslim empire legislated or systematically enforced such a policy toward its religious minorities. Yes, the Koran says "slay the infidels" but no Muslim empire actually did that. For example the Muslims ruled North India for two centuries before they were displaced by the British. The Mughal emperors could have killed the tens of millions of Hindus under their control or at least forced them to become Muslims? They did nothing of the sort.
Spencer glibly jumps over entire centuries in linking, say, the savagery of the Ottomans in Constantinople with the savagery of Hezbollah in Lebanon or the Taliban in Afghanistan. How different is Spencer's one-sided reading of Islam from, say, the works of historian Bernard Lewis. Lewis is hardly uncritical of Islam. But he knows that world, speaks the local languages, and exhibits in his work a nuance, judiciousness and balance that, alas, I don't find in Spencer or other conservative Islamophobes.
It is Bin Laden's argument that radical Islam is true Islam. It is Bin Laden's contention that he is doing nothing more than what is commanded in the Koran and the Islamic tradition. And Robert Spencer essentially agress with Bin Laden! Spencer is willing to concede one of the world's great religions--one with more than a billion adherents worldwide--to the murderers of Al Qaeda. At one point in our CPAC debate he asked me to name a traditional Muslim, as if such a creature scarcely exists in the world.
Do we really want to go to war with a billion Muslims? If not, is it realistic to approach the Muslim world with the premise that the only good Muslim is a non-Muslim? Don't all these Western attacks on Islam and the Koran and Muhammad, not to mention Spencer's agreement with Bin Laden that Islam mandates violence and terrorism, have the effect of alienating traditional Muslims and pushing them toward the radical camp? These are my questions for Spencer, and for other conservatives who follow the same line. It's time, I would urge these good folks, to reconsider some basic assumptions. Unfortunately you are part of the reason we are losing this war of ideas.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 5)
31. Before the time of 911 , I use to get into The Moslems Message Boards, There was no one Moslem who dint show hate for America. After 911, they changed their oppinions, to God Bless America. They know how to dance with the Rythim. Can we trust them? Read the Coran. and find out. that the infidels should dssappear. Who provoke the hatred? It is inside their soul, Their taught since they are born to think like that. When they smile, watch out.
Hashu Ortha at 1:45PM on Mar 2nd 2007
32. How can you say that islam not the problem? Your ignorance is appalling - do you not know about the 80+ million Hindus that were killed by the muslim invaders? islam has been and continues to be the biggest problem in your own home country! why is it that you ignore that fact? because you're a convert?
stu at 1:45PM on Mar 2nd 2007
33. Before the time of 911 , I use to get into The Moslems Message Boards, There was no one Moslem who dint show hate for America. After 911, they changed their oppinions, to God Bless America. They know how to dance with the Rythim. Can we trust them? Read the Coran. and find out. that the infidels should dssappear. Who provoke the hatred? It is inside their soul, Their taught since they are born to think like that. When they smile, watch out.
Hashu Ortha at 1:46PM on Mar 2nd 2007
34. Before the time of 911 , I use to get into The Moslems Message Boards, There was no one Moslem who dint show hate for America. After 911, they changed their oppinions, to God Bless America. They know how to dance with the Rythim. Can we trust them? Read the Coran. and find out. that the infidels should dssappear. Who provoke the hatred? It is inside their soul, Their taught since they are born to think like that. When they smile, watch out.
Hashu Ortha at 1:47PM on Mar 2nd 2007
35. Before the time of 911 , I use to get into The Moslems Message Boards, There was no one Moslem who dint show hate for America. After 911, they changed their oppinions, to God Bless America. They know how to dance with the Rythim. Can we trust them? Read the Coran. and find out. that the infidels should dssappear. Who provoke the hatred? It is inside their soul, Their taught since they are born to think like that. When they smile, watch out.
Hashu Ortha at 1:48PM on Mar 2nd 2007
36. Before the time of 911 , I use to get into The Moslems Message Boards, There was no one Moslem who dint show hate for America. After 911, they changed their oppinions, to God Bless America. They know how to dance with the Rythim. Can we trust them? Read the Coran. and find out. that the infidels should dssappear. Who provoke the hatred? It is inside their soul, Their taught since they are born to think like that. When they smile, watch out.
Hashu Ortha at 1:48PM on Mar 2nd 2007
37. D'Souza's main argument should make us think a little about the causes of radical you-know-what, but it smacks of the all-encompassing Leftist notion that one should look to outside influences to find the cause of any trouble. The media and education and legal systems have been increasingly top-heavy with this nonsense since the 1970s and folks are starting to wake up.
We can probably all agree that Western cultural excesses have influenced the ideology of radical muslim leaders-- it is the leaders who propel the violence, not "the people"-- but so what? The causes are also based, overwhelmingly, in Islamic teachings, on personal choices and on local politics. The responsibility for terrorism is wholy owned by those who carry it out. It's a fairly simple concept, Mr D'Souza. Identifying influences does not subtract from ultimate responsibility.
lycaste at 1:54PM on Mar 2nd 2007
38. Notice the people attack Islam as the problem are the people confusing "there" with "their" and "your" with "you're." People get an education and you'll realize that there has been death and conflict surrounding all three of the major western religions. From the Crusades to the Inquisition to the Modern-Day Islamic Fanatics, death and religious fanatics go hand and hand. People say drop bombs to flatten the extremists... but that would only prove we are more extreme than them. Be an American and respect your fellow Americans whether they are Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Black, or White.
Tarek at 1:58PM on Mar 2nd 2007
39. Cm, if they're good people to begin with, why would they curse America in God's name? Why are they happy whenever the "holy" war succeeds over nations who just want a diplomatic (really good communication with each other), peaceful resolutions?
Walsh, let's think about who voted the politicians first.
Cm and Walsh, do you want Israel be conquered (again) by people who don't even respect a nation like Israel? Or maybe it's because the nations around them envy them that even if Isreal is small country, they couldn't eradicate them. Thankfully, there's something going on that most of us don't understand.
isis at 2:27PM on Mar 2nd 2007
40. it's not the Muslems. It's the Arabs.
s jacobs at 2:30PM on Mar 2nd 2007
41. Boy....I have to say you guys have alot of nothing to say. after reading these posts I have just become dumber. If you really believe that muslims, and the people of the middle east do not want peace and harmony, and are not loving individuals you are....in itself a nut job!! One day the world will realize we are all pawns in what I consider to be a game between radical, extreme, and facist leaders. We somehow continue to put the most crude and evil individuals in power. And for all of you who are wondering....ever ask yourself why we are attacking Iraq, iran , and syria when the majority if not all of the 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. Did you know that as I type this.... With the help of Saudia Arabia the United States is helping place and fund a terrorist Al Queda in Lebanon. The problems ARE MUCH DEEPER THEN YOU THINK!!
David at 2:36PM on Mar 2nd 2007
42. It is good to see practically no positive responses to Mr. D'Souza's ludicrous claims, as supported by his preposterous book. Robert Spencer has forgotten more about Islam than Dinesh will ever know. We all know the ideology of Islam, taken directly from their canonized immutable texts (Qur'an/Hadith/Sura) as applied throughout the world today, and historically since it's inception (Muhammad was a warrior by trade), is the sole cause of 9/11. Yeah yeah yeah, the cultural left in America facilitates the spread of Islam, but D'Souza's response is classical "tu quoque", sensationalized to make another buck for the man, probably subsidized by the Saudi's, to publish the trash that his book is.
Mr. Smith at 2:38PM on Mar 2nd 2007
43. Over the centuries many wars have been fought over religion. Religious leaders used text (taken out of context, I am sure) to justify the slaughter of millions of people. All major religions have participated in this slaughter. Remember the crusades-Catholicism against Islam, or think of the slaughter of Catholics under Cromwell in England, and King Saul's slaughter of the Amalekites described in the Book of Samuel. These are only a few illustrations of the religious wars that have caused many deaths in the past.
The point is, do we fault the religion or do we fault those who interpret the religious documents.
In the past, I think the fault lay primarily in those who interpreted the religious documents, although there was some political influence there as well. Today, I think the problem is caused by a desire for political influence. The political figures use religious in an attempt to further their own ambitions for power and monetary gains.
We cannot blame a particular religion for the current violence. We must blame the political leaders on both sides who, in the name of religion, have caused havoc we are now experiencing.
Gene Thomas at 3:01PM on Mar 2nd 2007
44. The notion that Islamic terrorism is a modern occurrance is wrong. The word assassin comes from the Islamic Guild of Assassins, which grew to be so powerful that they held lands and estates much like the Christian Knights Templar. They operated much like Murders Inc. or contract killers for political or economic interests that could pay the fee.
They were destroyed as a political force by the invasion of the Mongols in the 13th century.
Bush has united them as never before, his policies have resulted in an Iraqi holocaust. You really think after the deaths of 600,000 Iraqi's and the creation of 2.5 million refugees they are going to turn around and love us for enabling them to have a few elections? Espicially since the motivation for the invasion were trumped up lies. Bush has created a terrorist threat to this nation for a long as their memory exists.
Dale Freeman at 4:15PM on Mar 2nd 2007
45. I am beginning to love D'Souza as my comic relief of the day and I thank Robert Spencer for revealing what this person is.
The Big Double D is like Texas in the summer, it is too big, sprawls all over, you can't get away from it and it is full of hot air.
D'Souza if you examine his speech pattern can not keep from mentioning, selling and promoting his book. His entire blogs are like infomercials of the worst kind.
The honest truth is D'Souza is not American in thought patterns nor Conservative. His entire process is feminine liberal as he skirts issues, makes things up, degrades others and is Hillary Clinton in a Goa immigrant package.
Every time he opens his mouth or taps on a keyboard he reveals his complete ignorance on a wide variety of subjects. His mention of Muslim rule of India as an example of why Islam is humane in not slaughtering Indian Hindus or forcing them to Islam ignores economics as there was no way the Muslims could either murder nor convert that many Hindu nationals as it would have destroyed the Islamic empire.
Converted Hindu would have been free and not slaves to exploit and murdered Hindu waste resources and how does one profit when no workers are available to enslave?
That is the kind of ignorance D'Souza operates under. He in many ways is like Muhammed bringing back Christianity to Arabs and calling it Islam on the bias.
D'Souza is of Bombay a Portuguese outpost in India of Catholic origin. He has benefitted from British rule. He has immigrated to America, but at his heart he is the outsider Indian Hindu always looking in but never understanding Christianity, America, Americans nor the basis of all in God.
D'Souza clicks perfectly in the profile clock. I was not going to reveal this, but people do need to understand who this man is at heart. He is still the little Hindu Indian boy with dark skin who saw the elite were white skinned which beckons back to his past of Aryan white skinned peoples civilized the black skinned lower Indians of lore.
D'Souza looks at western values as superior and in his soul views white women as status symbols. It is why he dated prominant Conservative white women and married a southern Louisiana white female named Dixie.
His entire being is trying to be what he is not as he deems himself inferior. This is not racist, because he has written a book on it trying to negate his daughters ethnic background of simple Eurasian to "too many sources to define", which in turn in his psychology allows him to finally escape his Indian world as race does not matter.
Such pyschopathy never does make any sense as people who know India find it a dynamic, exotic and a seductive people with a rich heritage and peaceful industrious community. D'Souza though embraces the economic and status symbol and is what gears "his conservatism".
D'Souza is not an expert on Islam, America or anything. All he is is just a voice spewing things he has heard in order to give status to the ego house he has constructed. He uses his limited intellect as a weapon and when he meets people like Robert Spencer he fails miserably, but can not let it go as he has to blog about it in order to keep this little Indian boy in the fiction that he is not what he is.
Sadly, D'Souza should be pittied as he is not a voice for Conservatives or anything. He is like Muhammed who heard something and has twisted it to make himself into a lie he knows he is not.
agtG
LC at 4:55PM on Mar 2nd 2007