Most people reading the headline, "Pope Gets Rid of Limbo" are probably thinking, "What a killjoy! We really liked that game." They have in mind, of course, the game invented in Trinidad in which people shimmy their way to an ever-lowering pole and then try and propel their bodies, facing up and legs first, under the bar. It's a lot of fun to watch, especially when there are girls doing it, and alcohol is involved.
This type of limbo has not been outlawed by Pope Benedict, although I am sure he is ambivalent about it. Rather, the Pope has approved a theological commission's recommendation that the Catholic Church get rid of it's longstanding concept of limbo--a place, mentioned nowhere in the Bible, where babies go if they die before being baptized. Limbo has never been a formal doctrine of the Catholic Church, but it was considered sufficiently standard to be included in pre-communion lessons in Catholic schools around the world.
I was scornful of the idea when I first learned it in Catholic cathechism. But over the years I saw that it makes a kind of sense. The Christian idea is that we humans are born with original sin, what Immanuel Kant called the "crooked timber of humanity." This warped disposition is part of our nature, and therefore Catholics held that even newborns have it, and how can anyone who has an unrepented sinful nature go to heaven? Hell seemed like too harsh an alternative for little ones who had done nothing wrong, and so the Catholic Church invented limbo.
Think of limbo as a place which has no suffering, or if there is suffering, it is very mild. One of my Dartmouth professors explained it as a place where one-year-olds were gently pelted with marshmallows which they were nevertheless permitted to eat.
But today we live in a strange era in which infants are killed even before they are officially born. Thanks to Roe v. Wade and other abortion laws, being born is itself getting to be quite an achievement! And certainly it seems cruel and unreasonable to consign an unborn child, whose life has been snuffed out even before it began, to anything less than heaven. Even marshmallow pelting seems unfair under these circumstances.
And so from now on Catholicism will teach that unbaptized infants--born and unborn--go straight to heaven. I like this idea better, although I'm going to have to throw out my old cathechism book.
Reader Comments ( Page 33 of 33)
481. Hi Bob,
I had some computer problems or I probably would have answered Monday.
You seem to hold the law pretty highly, but why? I know people are valuable, but why? You say that is self- explanitory but I say so is sexuality with the way it breaks people's hearts to be promiscuous and with how unnatural homosexuality is. And I do not know why the law does not prohibit these things. Maybe though it is because these things were not a problem in our country back then. This country started so religious. Not that I condone "religion", but their monogamous commitment was at least not hurting anyone.
Michelle at 4:17PM on Aug 8th 2007
482.
I am having problems with my comments not coming up on another blog. This is a test to see if they will work here.
Michelle at 7:00PM on Aug 10th 2007
483. Hey Michelle,
Simply put, the law, especially the constitution was written by men who had democracy in mind. That means a society where choices can be made by the people. So long as they don't bring harm to others. Pysical harm that is... we can't make law to assure freedom from offense. Because everyone is offended by different things.
So, I hope you see... the law can't ban homosexuality... that is a personal choice and it doesn't hurt anybody else.
Take Care,
Bob
Bob at 5:53PM on Aug 14th 2007
484. teachings are ways to help fill in the gaps ,to make it easyer for some to say ,OK that makes a little more sense ,ill convert my life ,,, now does some incorrect teaching on the unseen , go down as total daming of a life syle,,and could God condem a group of people trying to reach him ,that possess the limits of understanding giving to them? NO. This finger pointing is a tool of something more common in this world...Ask yourself if your 4 year old child made you a birthday card , and mispelled your name on it ...would you defend your child if others attacked him or her for the imperfection, or used the incadent to boster their own self rightgesness,,lets not confuse love with bickering
gary at 8:04AM on Aug 18th 2007
485. Hello, Bob,
I am very sorry that I got so busy at the end of the summer and haven’t been on here.
I understand what you said about humans being the only animals who have true emotions and intellect. But I don’t understand why you think that could happen without a Creator. To me, those emotions and intellect are what make man “in the image and likeness of God.”
You said 4 things I’d like to address.
I’ll start with the most important thing first.
You said, “The Pope recently just stated that all other churches aren't true and that Catholicism is the only true path to salvation. In so stating, the Pope is saying that any human who is not a Catholic is going to hell and will not have salvation.”
That is NOT what the Pope said or what the Church teaches. That is what some in the media reported.
This is what I believe and what the Church teaches.
We are made of spirit and flesh. So is the Body of Christ. All Christians belong to the spiritual Body of Christ. But there is also a physical Body of Christ, the Church. Christ is the actual head of that Body and He set up Peter and his successors as the earthly physical stewards of the Church for Him. (Like the Old Testament stewards with the keys of the Kingdom, while the King was away.)
Some Christians are fully incorporated into this Church and some are partially incorporated into it. But whether they believe it or not, and whether they want to be or not, ALL CHRISTIANS BELONG TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO SOME EXTENT.
As Catholics we believe that Jesus founded only one Christian Church, entrusted it to Peter and the Apostles, sent the Holy Spirit to the Church to interpret truth in faith matters and these “teachings of the Apostles” have been preserved and handed down to the Church today.
That there were divisions later doesn’t change that. And there can only be one truth on certain issues. And since they cannot all be correct, the Holy Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus to the Church cannot contradict Himself.
There cannot be many Christian Churches believing different things. Jesus founded only one physical Church and it can only have one truth.
As Christians, either there is a Trinity or there isn’t. Either the Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Christ or it is a symbol or only spiritual. Either we can ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us or we can’t. Etc.
But that is not the same thing as saying that all other Christian Churches are devoid of truth or do not belong to Christ or that the these other Churches are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. And IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONLY CATHOLICAS ARE SAVED. That is not what the Pope said.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear on this. All Christians belong in some way to the one true Catholic Church, to the extent that they agree with Catholic teachings. So if a non Catholic believes that Jesus is Lord and Savior and forgives sins, believes in the Trinity and the Second Coming, etc., then they are incorporated into the Catholic Church partially and to that extent. A believing Catholic would be fully
incorporated into the Church.
Orthodox are separated by belief in authority, not faith beliefs, so they are in schism with the Church, not heretics outside the Church. As the last Pope said, Catholic and Orthodox are the right and left lungs of the Church, East and West. (And the Catholic Church is made up of 22 Catholic Churches. 21 other Eastern Catholic Churches united with the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, besides the larger Western Roman Catholic Church, which of course is also united with the Pope. These Eastern Catholics have liturgies and customs identical to Eastern Orthodox, including married priests. And they are fully Catholic and have their own Patriarchs and autonomy on most matters, just like the early Church was set up in the first few centuries. That is how is it today.)
The current Pope embraced the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople last year. Two great men. One has a seat that can be directly traced to St. Peter and the other a seat directly traced to St. Andrew. These Apostles were actual brothers. And these Churches are sister Churches. I was very moved by that. And I pray for full unity one day in my lifetime between Catholics and Orthodox.
The Catechism also says that the Holy Spirit is alive in all Christians and that the Holy Spirit works through all Christian Churches. And that there are elements of salvation found outside the physical boundaries of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church believes in the concept of “invincible ignorance,” that even non-Christians can be saved and that there is a Baptism of Desire and that Jesus can appear to all men at the moment of death. Does it then make sense that the Church would then say that Protestant Christians will not be saved? The Church does not say that. One may not be totally inside the Church, but that doesn’t mean they are totally outside the Church either. And all things are possible with God. He is not bound by the norms He gives to His own Church.
And Jesus said, “Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be.” The Pope was saying that the actual physical Church that Jesus set up “SUBSISTS IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.” And if one reads the New Testament and the early Church fathers and Christian writings from the first few centuries, history will tell you that there was only one united Church then. And the faith beliefs are the same as the beliefs of Catholics today.
The important things to remember about the current divisions in Christianity is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says and what the Pope believes are the following:.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#I
“more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of BOTH SIDES WERE TO BLAME. The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body . . . do not occur without human sin.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church #817)
CCC #818:
“All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
CCC #819:
“Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity.”
And as CCC #820 says, as Christians we should pray for full unity one day:
“Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time." Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me." The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.”
CCC #836-838:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
IF YOU READ ONLY ONE THING, READ #847 All sincere men may achieve salvation, including non-Catholics and even non-Christians. Only God knows what He is calling each individual to and only He can read their heart.
CCC #846-848:
Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
_________
The other 3 things you mentioned aren’t as important, but here they are.
You also said, “How awful it would be if we all had the same opinion on God.” See I think the complete opposite on this. I think how awesome it would be if we all held the same truth. Because why everyone can have their own “opinions” about God, they cannot all be true. Truth does not contradict or conflict. Either there is a God or not. Either He is good or not. Either Jesus is God or not.
So whether my beliefs are right or wrong (and I deeply believe they are right), I think it would be wonderful if myself and all men believed only truth about God. And that would mean we all believe the same thing, whether it is my beliefs or someone else’s.
And one day, by the grace of God, we all will believe the same thing. Because once this life is over, I believe our eyes will be open to the truths of God.
The other thing I’d like to address is that Galileo was not persecuted for saying that the Earth revolved around the Sun. That is a common fallacy. If you really investigate the true history, you will see that.
The Church had no problem with Copernicus who published the theory before Galileo. He wrote his book at the prompting of Church officials and he dedicated the book to the Pope at the time. The Church basically endorsed the book. Because it was presented as a THEORY, not fact. Because the science of the time could not prove it as a fact, the Church wanted it presented as such, since it seemed to contradict a literal interpretation of a small bit of scripture. Until it could be proven, the Church wanted it presented as a theory. There were many Jesuits at the time who were studying astronomy also. The Church was interested in science, not against it.
Copernicus presented it as a theory because he recognized it was still in the theory stage. Galileo, however, presented it as fact, purposely going against what the Church asked of him. That was when his theory was condemned and he was excommunicated. Not because of science. Because he was disobedient to the Church, overreached, seemed to mock the Pope in his book, even thought the Pope had encouraged Galileo to write the book in the first place. And the Church did not want to lead any faithful astray in case this theory was not proven in the future. Was Galileo treated too harshly and unjustly? Definitely. But it was not because the Church turned a blind eye to science.
The Pope at the time encouraged Galileo to write a book and discuss the theory. But only as theory. A century and a half later, the Church accepted the scientific proof that came later.
Finally, as far as Fatima, there were Protestants and Atheists and journalists there, who all saw the miracle of the Sun. Many came to believe because of what they saw. It was not just believers who saw it, and so you cannot say they were all hallucinating.
OK, well I think I've written enough. LOL Sorry again it is so long.
God bless you, Bob, always, and Michelle and everyone else reading here. You are all in my daily prayers.
Elisa
Elisa at 12:58PM on Aug 30th 2007
486. Hello Elisa,
I read your very long comment and am now prepared to respond. I think to begin, your knowledge of history has been deeply conditioned by your own faith and the fact that every bit if interpretation of history you accept puts the Catholic Church in a positive light if not a divine one.
I'm sorry to be a stick in the mud but, what the church is saying is a contradiction to what the Pope had said. He said the other churches aren't true and that the catholic church is the only path to salvation. I have the article. But, saying things like that causes controversy, of course, and so now it is going to be said the Pope didn't really mean that, he simply meant that the physical churches are false and that really everybody who believes in Christ is a Catholic anyways. I am disgusted at the RCC's self appointed authority to make such a statement. I am friends with many Christians who want absolutely nothing to do with the RCC and would be vehemently opposed to such a statement. If they wanted to be members of that Church they would join. Plain and simple. The RCC likes to spew a lot of nonsense with self appointed authority. I am not a member of the RCC and I do not accept this nonsense about "invincible arrogance" a lot of churches Protestant and Catholic alike think this. But, that doesn't make it so and it is even offensive to people who don't believe in the malevolent god person. How would you like it if I, using self appointed authority said "everyone is truly an atheist because nobody could truly possibly believe the nonsense clergymen teach them and that is found in the Bible because it has the elements of a fairy tale, is self contradictory, and has little to no supporting evidence." This is not so. You clearly believe the things you have been told to believe and have been taught to believe ever since a young age I would assume. You are not an atheist ... I have no right to state that on self appointed authority and more the Dawkins the leader of our movement, could say that everyone is an atheist using his considerable sway. A Protestant is not a Catholic nor is it the case vice versa. That is a lot of Catholic nonsense. The RCC has no right to make a statement like that. Catholics are Catholics and that is all.
The RCC also uses its own authority to say it is the only true church. That is not so either. Roman Catholicism was founded by: Rome. Jesus came unto his people... one of whom is who you call the father of your church, Peter. You have to realize that the rest of the world was pagan at that time. Paul was the apostle to the nations to show them the ways of God. And if your read his books you will see he is teaching them the ways of the Jews and the Old Testament as the Old Testament is quoted frequently throughout the New Testament to give authority to the things the apostles say. Jesus taught in synagogues not Churches. The apostles were Jews who came to believe in the Messiah and very much so kept their Judaism. Read Romans Chapter 11:11 and then verses 25 and 26. This clearly shows that the only reason salvation has come to gentiles is to provoke the Jews to jealousy and in verses 25 and 26 the restoration of God's Jewish people is talked about. The Bible is a Jewish book and it Remains so until the book of Revelations with the 12,000 of twelve tribes of Israel being God's anointed for a total of 144,000. And God's kingdom being called what else but a "New Jerusalem." God has promised in the Bible to restore his people. That is the story of the Bible. It begins with the Jews and it ends with them. The New Testament even talks about the "time of the gentiles being fulfilled." A Jewish book trough and through. Not a Roman one, not a Catholic one. Even Paul saying "to the Jew first and then to the gentile." Need I go on?
This idea of teaching tings on self appointed authority is mimicked in the Jehovah's Witnesses who say they have always been the true organization and that anyone who is not one of them is getting destroyed at the great battle of Armageddon. But, historically, that organization originated with a man named Charles Take Russell. A man of Protestant parents. Who decided to break the common way and question what his mother and father had taught him and thought that he understood things better and made is own self proclaimed "only true organization." Witnesses even call what they believe "the truth." And, they believe what they do just as fervently as you believe the Roman Catholic Church which didn't exist until after Constantine and was Pagan in origin. Christianity or better named the ways of the Messiah, as he was called by his followers Yeshua the messiah, was taking hold in Rome. Which has taken the Pagan gods of the Greeks and given them Roman names and had remained that way until Constantine. Constantine realized which one had the greater hold and made "Christianity" the official Church of Rome. A man who was a life long pagan. Jesus came to the Jews and never to the gentiles and he never established the Roman Catholic Church. His church or congregation, was of anyone who believed in him but, he never asked for it to be carried on the shoulders of the Romans. All of whom at the time were pagans and not God's people. Not only that, but had his people enslaved at the time to boot. It was carried on the shoulders of Peter, a Jew.
I could go on to show you how some of the customs of the RCC are actually pagan in origin. But, I want to address the rest of what you wrote.
Galileo was indeed persecuted. The only people who say he was not is the RCC. Next I suppose we will hear that the Inquisition was greatly exaggerated and things were not really that bad. Rubbish. What Galileo had to say was in direct contradiction to what the Bible taught. If people were to hear it was so they would start reading the Bible more critically questioning authority. Things like that. Nothing the current Pope was interested in. It was considered heresy to say something that contradicted the word of God and he was excommunicated for that reason. It is self evident. You would have people think that anything the RCC has done evil in the past was not that bad. I understand, you are certainly biased, and you hear their words and their ideas in your head all of the time. Not to mention your very strong faith and the fact that your family is likely filled with people who are Catholic as well.
There are people who say the Holocaust never took place. These people are just as crazy as those who say Galileo was not persecuted. Yes, these are two ugly things, but they did in fact, take place. The only sites I found that show that Galileo was not persecuted were catholic sites -- what a shock.
This is called covering things up.
On people believing the same thing about God, yes, I do think it would be a shame. Why? Well, first, I am an atheist and I don't really believe there is a God or gods or fairies, goblins, ghosts, or anything else for which we have no evidence. The second reason is that it shows the beautiful diversity of human race and how we look at things and interpret them. Long before the RCC was ever even though of, there were ancient civilizations who had Gods and their own various ideas about the supernatural. I think it is beautiful to look at the ways in which our species throughout time have tried to answer the question "where do we come from" and "who or what did all of this?." And then civilizations started guessing. I feel like this about God the same way I would feel if every tree were the same, and every flower the same, the whole earth being the same color, and everybody having the same opinions on everything in which case there would be no need for discussion. That I think yes, would be awful to say the least.
As for Fatima, this is not impressive. There are tons of people who swear to having seen various things throughout time and in some cases in mass numbers. This does not make them so. Maybe they all suffered heat stroke and hallucinated. I can't say for sure. What I can say however, is that if the sun did indeed dance, the sighting of this event would have been seen the world oven as the sun is stationary and shines all over one part of the Earth at a time and if it did decide to dance, everybody would have seen it and not just the folks at Fatima.
P.S. I am not Jewish, I only mean to convey that the textual evidence shows the Bible to be a Jewish book that is all. I am opposed to much of what the Jewish Book teaches including stoning, animal sacrifice, and many others. I am an atheist. Just to clear that up.
Take Care Elisa,
Bob
Bob at 1:23PM on Sep 8th 2007
487. By the way, Michelle or Elisa if you guys have a youtube account I could private message you or you me and we could discuss these things via email if you like. My user profile is http://www.youtube.com/robtul12
Take Care,
Bob
Bob at 1:28PM on Sep 8th 2007
488. beleave it or not let the Catholics alone ..
big g. at 12:44PM on Dec 28th 2007
489. let the Catholics beleave what they want or round them up and send them to prison camps..
big g. at 12:45PM on Dec 28th 2007