If you want to discover what kind of people atheists are, scroll down to my recent posts and read the responses. I am a troll. I am a cretin. I am a moron. I am a nut-job. And so on. For those who go beyond abuse, there is shrieking complaint. How dare you suggest atheists weren't around when this happened? How can you say atheists don't have feelings? How can you exploit this tragedy in this way? How come your God didn't prevent this, huh?
Actually my point was a simple one, and it seems to be unrefuted. Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy. Of course atheists have feelings and there were undoubtedly atheists among the mourners at Virginia Tech. But the Richard Dawkins philosophy--that we live in a meaningless world where there is no good and no evil--whatever its intellectual merit, seems arid and unconsoling when human beings are really hurting.
One atheist wrote to say that rather than rely on idle promises of fantasies of life after death, what atheists would say is that we need gun control laws and a better health care system. Fair enough, but is this what you tell a crying mother? "Madam, you should feel much better because new gun control laws and mental health reforms are on their way."
I wonder if the abuse that atheists heap on people when their ideas are questioned is indicative of a deeper malady. Atheists like to portray themselves as devotees of reason, but read the responses and see how much reason you discover there. Rather, it looks like these fellows hate God, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up God's name. Call it the atheism of revenge. They blame God for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 8)
31. As a religious person I am ashamed that you have used this horrible tragedy to discriminate against another group of people for no apparent reason other than to further your own biggoted agenda. You shame yourself and all those who believe in God. Christ said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". You seem to be far from Christ-like.
Steve Fisher at 11:38PM on Apr 20th 2007
32. "Actually my point was a simple one, and it seems to be unrefuted. Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy"
-------------------------------------------------
Seems your wrong (as usual). We atheists do have something to say, but it's something you believers seem to find distasteful. It is this: Take consolation and support in one another in times like these. Have faith in yourselves, your neighbors, family, and friends and do so without invoking or creating imaginary, invisible ones. Sure, it may seem unconsoling at first, but you'll grow out of it, just as children outgrown their Easter bunnies and tooth fairies.
Consider your point refuted.
Outblaze at 11:43PM on Apr 20th 2007
33. Weird. What I mostly saw was a lot of absolutely wonderfully reasoned arguments. I was so impressed with how much people held back, considering the insult that you thrust upon a group of people about their behaviors and beliefs that were flat out WRONG! And you were far from polite in your condemnation. Then once you were corrected with those numerous reasoned responses, you came back with yet another attack on atheists. What a spit in the face of all those people who took so much time to explain why your beliefs about them were wrong. They were extremely polite in light of your lies, and probably moreso in light of you using the dead of that tragedy to foist your hateful, erroneous beliefs about an entire group of people, and without any merit, to boot.
You have proven time and again now that you're not the least bit interested in the facts. They've been given to you repeatedly, and in my different ways; that you got nothing from that but to find more ways to go on the attack, says a lot more about you than it does on those who chose to straighten out your falsehoods and bigotry.
Disgusted at 2:05AM on Apr 21st 2007
34. > Actually my point was a simple
> one, and it seems to be
> unrefuted.
Unrefuted? Your point is INVALID.
> Atheism seems to have nothing to
> say to people when there is
> serious bereavement or tragedy.
Yeah? So fucking what? What sort of point is that? That's not a point. That's WHINING, nothing more.
Are you arguing that being a theist is preferable because it offers soem fairy tale consolation prize?
Are you making an argument from consequences? (Might I remind you, (or teach you for the first time) that argument from consequences is a LOGICAL FALLACY.
Are you a moron? (Rhetorical question... of course you aren't smart enough to be a moron.)
SteveC at 12:38AM on Apr 22nd 2007
35. Dinesh D'ouchbag's ghoulish use of mass murder to further his own religious bigotry is getting noticed:
http://www.brentrasmussen.com/log/node/1294
http://newpairodimes.blogspot.com/search/label/Dinesh%20D'Souza
http://weblog.sinteur.com/?p=18359
What a contemptible shithead.
Brian Westley at 2:29AM on Apr 21st 2007
36. http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2007/04/as-pharyngula-recently-noted-dinesh.html
http://carolyn-ann.blogspot.com/2007/04/dinesh-dsouza-on-athiesm.html
http://importreason.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/dinesh-dsouzas-message-to-mourners/
Way to go, fascist tool.
Brian Westley at 2:35AM on Apr 21st 2007
37. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=204438
http://www.washblog.com/story/2007/4/20/134448/121
http://mojoey.blogspot.com/2007/04/where-is-atheism-when-bad-things-happen.html
On second thought, I apologize.
Even fascists don't deserve to be lumped in with D'ouchbag.
Brian Westley at 2:37AM on Apr 21st 2007
38. Sir, I am an atheist. You are right in one respect. Atheism, as a single simple belief, has no comfort to offer people in times of crisis. And that is why, if you saw me comforting the grieved, you wouldn't know I am an atheist, because the non-existence of the gods has nothing to do with it. So why do you think atheists are nowhere to be found in this? It is like saying patrons of opera are nowhere to be found, even if patrons of opera are inconspicuously scattered throughout the crowds of the grieving and comforting. I know for a fact that atheists are among those weeping at VTech, only because an atheist professor has publicly identified himself, a thing that would not be necessary except in light of your excessive condescension toward all of us.
ApostateAbe at 3:46AM on Apr 21st 2007
39. Atheism permits us to view the world as it is, not coloured by some form of deity.
Atheism provides more tranquility to the wellbeing and peace of mind of the living than religion, with its focus on the life after death. Religion focuses on how to maximise your chances of getting into Heaven once you die - rather a selfish endeavour. An atheist can comfort a weeping mother - a religious person would tell her her son could either be in Heaven or Hell.
Given the impressive track record of religion in matters of making people suffer, I would personally recommend you do not pursue the idea that atheists heap abuse.
And if you wonder about the reaction you got, substitute the word 'atheists' for 'blacks' or 'Jews' and you'll start to understand (I hope) the bigotry you've displayed.
Adri at 5:21AM on Apr 21st 2007
40. The only hate on this message board seems to be coming from the blogger. If I was involved in the tragedy then the LAST thing I would want would be someone telling me that it is all OK because a flying spaghettit monster would be looking after my friends. I would much rather have investigation, explanation, and mourning.
tailfly at 6:16AM on Apr 21st 2007
41. First off, Dinesh, congratulations on finding a great topic. You can milk this one for a good half dozen blog posts. It's like getting content for free.
"Where were atheists?" What a complete non-sequitur. You may as well ask, Where were Zoroastrians? Or, Where were the Scientologists? Or, Where was Mensa? But to answer your question (and thereby give it more respect than it deserves), the answer is: right there. On the spot, same as everybody else. A place the size of Virginia Tech, full of so many scientists and engineers, you think there are no atheists around? Please.
So to answer your question, they were there, quietly helping and comforting -- and recovering and grieving -- just like everybody else. Should they have announced their presence? Put up a sign saying "Atheist assistance here"? If they had done something so crass, they would have been (rightly) criticized for grandstanding. Not to mention that their help would be scorned by some Christians.
"Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy." Atheism, no. Atheists, however, have plenty to offer. You think we can't feel grief and pain? That we can't feel sympathy? That we can't offer assistance? The only thing we can't offer that Christians can is cheap platitudes like "It's all part of God's plan," or "They're in a better place now." I suggest to you that someone whose son or daughter has just been killed by a madman doesn't really want to hear that their child is in a better place. They just want them back. What can a Christian say that will bring their child back? Nothing. There's nothing you can say to those people that will really comfort them, any more than there is for an atheist. You can only offer support and sympathy, and let time make the pain more bearable for them.
"Rather, it looks like these fellows hate God, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up God's name. Call it the atheism of revenge. They blame God for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback." You know, at first I didn't really know what to say to this. The obtuseness of it flat out stonkered me. But here's a thought experiment that may illustrate it for you: take your statements and replace the word "atheist" with "Christian," and the word "God" with the word "Anubis."
"I wonder if the abuse that Christians heap on people when their ideas are questioned is indicative of a deeper malady. Christians like to portray themselves as devotees of reason, but read the responses and see how much reason you discover there. Rather, it looks like these fellows hate Anubis, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up Anubis' name. Call it the Christianity of revenge. They blame Anubis for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback."
Sounds silly, doesn't it? That's the point. It's utterly nonsensical it is to hate something that you don't even believe exists. I don't hate God any more than you hate Anubis. I don't want to get revenge on God any more than you want to get revenge on Thor or Odin.
I'll pay you the compliment of assuming that you've put a lot of thought into your beliefs, that you don't just believe in God because you've been told to do so, or because it's "cool" and all your friends are doing it, but because you feel deeply that it's the right thing to do. Why is it so hard for you to believe that atheists are any different? By saying that atheists are "getting revenge on a God that's screwed them over," you're basically calling atheists a bunch of liars, or at least a bunch of self-deluded children, who aren't really sincere in their beliefs, but just being rebellious. Well, when you say you're a Christian, I don't assume you're lying or deluding yourself, Dinesh. I think you're wrong, but I don't doubt your sincerity. I just wish you could have the same level of respect for me.
Ryland at 5:35AM on Apr 21st 2007
42. Maybe people are angry that you chose to manipulate this tragedy for an obscene, and willfully deceptive, purpose.
You want refutation? Here's how you start: "Notice something interesting about the aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings? Atheists are nowhere to be found.". Besides the fact that it's false, it's also uninteresting. It's only *interesting* if you are Dinesh D'Souza and you are trying to build a strawman argument from real dead bodies. Or it might be interesting if you are interested in the question "does Dinesh D'Souza need human tragedy to manufature false claims?".
Now what do you write next? This: "Every time there is a public gathering there is talk of God and divine mercy and spiritual healing. Even secular people like the poet Nikki Giovanni use language that is heavily drenched with religious symbolism and meaning.". Really? Like what? What such language did Nikki Giiovanni use in the wake of this tragedy? Or are you just making that up too? Because I've read her remarks, and you can too (http://www.vt.edu/tragedy/giovanni_transcript.php)
and there is nothing remotely religious about them. You just MADE THAT UP.
And so it goes. You are a contemptable mercenary, exploiting the senseless slaughter of these innocents to score a cheap rhetorical point, and you don't even take the time to get your facts straight.
GTK at 5:47AM on Apr 21st 2007
43. Dinesh, you're making a bad name for us religious. Please stop talking.
@atheists: please don't think all religious dudes are like him. (at least, i'm not.)
Levi at 6:36AM on Apr 21st 2007
44. "Rather, it looks like these fellows hate God, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up God's name. Call it the atheism of revenge. They blame God for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback."
How can you have any credibility after this foolish rant? Only someone religious would dream at length how not believing in a non-existent entity has anything to do with what the non-existent entity has done to them.
God does not exists so there is noting to hate. Your foolishness is amusing. I thought Standford is a respected university.
kris at 6:57AM on Apr 21st 2007
45. "If you want to discover what kind of people atheists are, scroll down to my recent posts and read the responses. I am a troll. I am a cretin. I am a moron. I am a nut-job. And so on. For those who go beyond abuse, there is shrieking complaint."
Right, and religionists are never offensive on the internet.
When a blogger turns to whining about being called names, you know they are losing the argument.
Many atheists are atheists because they have a good grasp of reason. Sorry D'Souza, but I'm sure you are aware of your own mental inadequacies. You can't win this argument. To quote the sage Harry Reid, this war is lost.
Jack Fisher at 7:19AM on Apr 21st 2007