If you want to discover what kind of people atheists are, scroll down to my recent posts and read the responses. I am a troll. I am a cretin. I am a moron. I am a nut-job. And so on. For those who go beyond abuse, there is shrieking complaint. How dare you suggest atheists weren't around when this happened? How can you say atheists don't have feelings? How can you exploit this tragedy in this way? How come your God didn't prevent this, huh?
Actually my point was a simple one, and it seems to be unrefuted. Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy. Of course atheists have feelings and there were undoubtedly atheists among the mourners at Virginia Tech. But the Richard Dawkins philosophy--that we live in a meaningless world where there is no good and no evil--whatever its intellectual merit, seems arid and unconsoling when human beings are really hurting.
One atheist wrote to say that rather than rely on idle promises of fantasies of life after death, what atheists would say is that we need gun control laws and a better health care system. Fair enough, but is this what you tell a crying mother? "Madam, you should feel much better because new gun control laws and mental health reforms are on their way."
I wonder if the abuse that atheists heap on people when their ideas are questioned is indicative of a deeper malady. Atheists like to portray themselves as devotees of reason, but read the responses and see how much reason you discover there. Rather, it looks like these fellows hate God, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up God's name. Call it the atheism of revenge. They blame God for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback.
Reader Comments ( Page 7 of 8)
91. I'm very much not an atheist and I think you're a terrible person.
Termy at 9:16PM on Apr 22nd 2007
92. "I'm very much not an atheist and I think you're a terrible person."
Well of course you think I'm a terrible person. That's what christianity is all about - hatred, disgust and discrimination. Cho is THE PRIME EXAMPLE OF "LOVING" CHRISTIANITY. Yes, we atheists demand equality, love, and RESPECT FOR THOSE WHOM ARE DIFFERENT FROM EVERYONE ELSE (gay, lesbian, illiterate, educated, black, white, asian, hispanic, etc.)- but we are "EVIL!"
ILLITERATE HATEFUL CHRISTIANS!
GET AN EDUCATION, or should I say, so the "loving" christians understand the language - GIT UN EDUMAKASHIN U PEEACES UV FILTH!
Dale at 9:56PM on Apr 22nd 2007
93. Unlike many of the other commentors,I'd have to agree with several of your points, Mr. D'Souza (and yes, I am an atheist). I have found that rather than being ambivalent towards the idea of God, most athiests tend to hate "God." I, too, find this as contradictory behavior. A true atheist would not fear or hate God, he simply recognizes the abstraction or the concept's existence, and then moves on, focusing on the world around him.
I see your point about what atheism can and cannot offer a grieving mother, however, my counter to that is--what CAN assuage a grieving mother? Even Christianity begins to fall short on this one. It can rationalize death, to an extent, but there is no logic involved in this process. Very little can be done here, by either system (and if you argue that a mother who is a churchgoer heals because she goes to church--one must ask, is this because of the RELIGION? or because of the COMMUNITY? If it is the latter, which is is likely to be, atheism can offer that as well). For an atheist, atheism will be far more "comforting" than religion. But, regardless, the purpose of atheism was never to comfort, and to say that it doesn't provide comfort is an unnecessary, somewhat redundant statement.
PRG at 11:22PM on Apr 22nd 2007
94. "I am still a christian and out of the deaths of these poor people all yall can manage to do is bicker about beliefs in the face of this tradgedy"
Sweetheart, you are on a blog response web page that has to do with atheism, theism, grief, and the VA tragedy. What are YOU doing on here posting your opinions?
" but yall in your argument seem to have forgot what really matters the only thing that matters helping the people involved in this tradgedy...."
Then why are you on here, and not doing what you can for the families and victims? I'm assuming you're not eating, working, sleeping, spending time with your kids... just a quick break from your tireless crusade to help the victims to come on here and tell us we aren't allowed to have debates because something very terrible just happened? Good grief.
and just by the way--
"it seesm to me the most importatnt thing regardless of belief is helping the people who survived and the poor familys of the victims and makeing sure this doesnt happen again"---
what, exactly, HAVE you been doing... what kind of work or study or research have you been working on while the rest of us have been on here debating and venting and exchanging beliefs and ideas? I'd really like to hear about your efforts and accomplishments so far!
sue at 10:05PM on Apr 22nd 2007
95.
I can agree with that, there are some "atheists" who hate the Christian god but are seemingly more sympathetic to other religions. In that respect they aren't really atheists though, because they have to believe in god to hate him in the first place.
You have to be an equal opportunity disbeliever to be classified as an atheist.
Peter at 11:32PM on Apr 22nd 2007
96. Dinesh D'souza: Ontological Douche Bag
http://themproject.blogspot.com/2007/04/dinesh-dsouza-ontological-douche-bag.html
Bucky at 9:55AM on Apr 23rd 2007
97. I've read your posts and I've read the comments. I'll stand with the atheists any day.
Several commenters early on responded to your question of what atheists have to offer the grieving. Perhaps you are too blinded by your own preconceptions to understand the English language, but you have, in fact, been soundly refuted.
The first rule when stuck in a deep hole is: stop digging.
Caro Cogitatus at 12:22PM on Apr 23rd 2007
98. Probably Christianity does have a bit more to offer many of the students and parents from Tech. I attended the school, and I do think that the majority of the kids there were raised Christian. So, that's there frame set, their spiritual comfort food, and if talking with a kind like-minded person helps them to make their way through this hard time, great. I am glad of it.
However, Tech is also a hard science and engineering school. A lot of the students--maybe not the majority, but many--tend to question everything--a curious mindset makes for good science. In questioning, they may have found that the belief system they were given doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny--it happens, it happened for me and several of my serious, well-raised friends. Those sorts of students might in fact gain more from talking with atheists or Buddhists or people with a loosely defined belief that the world is a little more than just mechanical. Let them.
I've known kind, wise atheists who are able to admit that they just don't know, and kind, wise believers who really feel that they have seen the truth and wish to share that beauty with everyone. And I'm thinking that *any* kind, wise person has something to offer during bad times, especially given that the people who are working through this will have different needs.
Anna at 2:27PM on Apr 23rd 2007
99. I disagree that "Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy."
Recently, I lost a family member in an unexpected, unforeseeable, tragic event. My sister is religious in the sense that she believes in God/Heaven/etc. I am an atheist and a woman of science.
She has had attempts from a multitude of people from dissimilar schools of religious thought/belief attempt to comfort her. And who do you suppose she turns to time after time for true comfort?
That would be me. She knows I am not lying to her, I am not saying things to merely "make her feel better." When I tell her that what happened to her husband was just as random an event as our existence at all, it gives her far more comfort (reality) than those who say "We don't know why this happened, but God has a purpose in everything." Her children are without a father. She is without a husband. Do you see how the unknowable "purpose" of "god" might fail to provide comfort?
When I tell her that her husband isn't suffering, feels no pain, knows no sorrow, this is not a lie. And she knows that I don't believe he is up in heaven in the arms of a creator. The reality of the absence of pain and illness after death is a comfort. But religious people still leave that shred of terrifying doubt. What about hell?
My opinion of hell and any "father-creator" that would send one of "his children" to a place of eternal torture is not a very positive one. A parent like that is unfit - and clearly doesn't have the slightest comprehension of unconditional love, let alone forgiveness. So thank you, but no. The concept of the Judeo-Christian deity falls short of the compassion of even "his" lowly creation - humanity.
"God" is an invention created with the intent of striking fear into the minds of simple people, a cruel method of control and an excuse to behave in an abusive manner.
Don't tell me that "god" or religion provide comfort. It's just fear of eternal roasting. In the meantime, life goes on - precious time that cannot be "relived" is lost. For what? For no more than a horror story.
I'll take reality, truth and science. Humanity can get more true comfort from the love and support of the living during the grief process than it ever will from religion.
Dr. S at 2:37PM on Apr 23rd 2007
100. I am waiting to hear what comforting words you have for the victims, as it has been you, and not me, who interjected my opinions into this subject.
Lead by example. Show people what a compassionate believer would do and say in this situation, or stop criticizing others for not doing and not saying precisely what you have neither said nor done.
Kristine at 4:31PM on Apr 23rd 2007
101. When comforting someone who had a loved one die (for whatever reason), I do not think that "God's plan" is of any use to them. Why would a grieving person need to hear that their loved one died because of a god's plan?
What I tell them is that I am deeply sorry for their loss, that I cannot fathomn what they must be going through, and that I am here for them. I will help them in any way humanly (and humanely) possible. I am their friend, and will be by their side, or give them space, whichever the case they need, including helping them with day to day issues that they cannot do because of thier grief. It is also extremely important that they believe that their loved one, be it spouse, child, parent, or friend, knew that they were loved when they died.
These things help far more than plattitudes about God's plan ever could. Of all my friends, the Atheists are far more comforting at a time of grieving than any Christian I have ever known.
Shellie Brighton at 4:41PM on Apr 23rd 2007
102. Atheism cannot comfort grieving mothers as well as religion because the truth is inherently harsh compared to the euphemistic system of religion. True, religion does provide a better comfort for a grieving mother; this does not justify beleif. Is it right to reject the truth if a lie is more comfortable to you?
By the way, Atheists cannot hate God because it is impossible to hate something that does not exist.
Virgil at 8:27PM on Apr 23rd 2007
103. Such sweeping accusations about a point of view you clearly know nothing about.
According to you, Atheists believe we live in a meaningless world... We have no morals, we do not recognise right from wrong, we are selfish, attach no meaning to life and a hundred other falsities you have invented to push your cause. If Atheists are rude to you, is it any wonder?
If the things you said to us were said to a Jewish person or a Muslim person you would be arrested for bigotry yet insulting Atheists seems like sport to some people.
In any case, you have said that your point is a simple one that has not been refuted. You say that Atheists have nothing to offer a grieving mother. (I'll use your cliché simply to satisfy you).
Atheists place the highest price on life as it is all we believe exists. We treasure it beyond all else and defend it to every breath. We treasure those around us because we find our meaning in them.
When we lose someone or hear about people being murdered in such horrendous ways, we mourn for them because we know that their lives have been taken away and that the people who knew them are grieving. We grieve because a world we place so much faith in seems a little darker, and we have to hold on to the hope that humanity, despite its flaws and its tragedies, is worth existing.
We have only our lives to measure our worth in.
We love, we cry, we dream.
We have morals. Every living creature knows what is right and what is wrong. Those laws were written into the universe before your gods were written by the hands of men afraid to die. Well, we're afraid to die - but we're not afraid to live. We see the world for its beauty but do not ignore its darkness. Instead of praying for forgiveness, we look for a solution - a way to avoid these tragedies.
I send my deepest sympathies to everyone who has suffered a tragedy. We tell our friends, family and the grieving mother cliché you are so fond of pushing, that loving someone is never easy and your heart will not forget them. In that sense, they will live on within the people who knew them. Their lives touched others and there is no more precious gift than touching another human being in a way that they will never forget.
In the events of tragedy, an Atheist does not look to their own problems and does not assume anything as ridiculous as a malevolent overlord punishing innocent people for the sins of others. We look to each other ( i mean, every other person) to find strength there.
We tell the mothers their children were loved by those they knew and that they will never be forgotten.
ellymelly at 11:38PM on Apr 23rd 2007
104. A useful question to ask an atheist is "Tell me a bit about this God that you don't believe in?"
Try it, sir.
bluecollarscholar at 3:55AM on Apr 24th 2007
105. If you want to discover what kind of people atheists are, look to Pat Tillman and his wonderful family. If you want to discover the character of some "Christians", look to those who covered up his death and blamed his family's distress on their lack of Christian faith. Like Dinesh D'Souza, those "Christians" are heartless charlatans, gouls willing to exploit senseless slaughter for their personal objectives.
GTK at 7:20PM on Apr 24th 2007