My post on limbo has attracted a good deal of intelligent comment, but what puzzles me is how atheists who believe in all kinds of immaterial reality (free will, consciousness, the unconscious, human rights and so on) profess utter amazement when religious concepts like the soul and immorality are mentioned. "So where is this soul?" these radical empiricists demand to know. Yet at the same time they talk about "self-discovery" as if there was a certain kind of "self" hiding inside of them. They speak of their "unconscious" as if it were observable under a microscope. In short, these empiricists are phony realists whose empiricism only seems to kick in when religious ideas are mentioned.
In this context several of them like to respond to theological concepts by asking, "And when will the church resolve the issue of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" No reason to write Pope Benedict about that. For the benefit of humanity, I am going to settle this issue once and for all. Angels, like dreams, are immaterial things. They don't have a bodily existence. Consequently they do not take up actual space. Therefore an infinite number of angels can dance on the head of a pin. Of course the atheist may laugh and say that angels don't exist. But equally obviously the atheist doesn't know that. His premise that they don't is just as faith-based as the believer's premise that they do. And given the premise that there are spiritual beings called angels, my conclusion follows inevitably. You see, my atheist friends, it's a simple matter of logic.
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 4)
46. If I was Dinesh, which I'm not, I would devote the next blog to the topic of how could a loving God allow such evil atrocities as the Republican Party, the Christian Coalition, and the Family Research Council exist.
There is an answer and solution: hillaryclinton.com
Phil at 8:31AM on Apr 24th 2007
47. Dinesh D'souza: The Douche Bag Speaks!
http://themproject.blogspot.com/2007/04/douche-bag-responds.html
Bucky at 10:27AM on Apr 24th 2007
48. Mr. Dinesh speaks about aethists as if he himself is a believer... in what I ask, God? How can you know God when your mind is filled with absolutes about what God is or isn't? I tell you it may very well be easier for aethists who have no pre-conceived notion of what God is or isn't to come face to face with God, than it is for those who try to use logic or the intellect to comprehend the nature of God. "Unless you come as a child...." emulating the qualities of innocent curiosity, unwavering expectations of the seemingly impossible, believers in the unseen... then I fear God will remain a mental theorizing and not a moment to moment reality. God is the energy force behind everything in existence.... Ask any scientist and they will tell you that each human being in essence is a vibrational energy field. "All material substances, tree, rock, human or animal, have electrical fields because all are composed of particles, atoms and cells."..... if science also teaches us that energy can not be created or destroyed—it can only be changed from one form to another, clearly death then represents a transformation of our energy from one state to another. I say this because angels are real.... they are energy beings not clothed by the human form but interacting with us on this material plane because nothing in existence operates in isolation.
"Since the quantum potential permeates all of space, all particles are nonlocally interconnected. At the deepest levels everything shares a common condition. The space in between matter contains as much of this galactic information as matter itself. The space that contains the particles scientists observe is as real and full of processes as the matter moving through it. Matter does not exist separately from surrounding space; it is part of the surrounding space. Space is not an empty vacuum; it is filled with energy. Every cubic centimeter of empty space contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe."
The God Source is infinite, eternal.... can your logical or intellectual mind grasp the quintessence of what that concept means? The human logical mind cannot compute the nature of infinity as it functions in a structured, hence finite manner. Therefore, in our quest to re-discover the nature of God and in so doing, our own nature (we are in the image of God), requires a suspension of pre-conceived beliefs and ideas of God, it requires an open mind and heart for the infilling of Divine omniscience... God cannot be theorized and broken down into components... instead, it is the ultimate ability to be aware of the fullness of God in our each and every present moment. It is an experiencing... surely, not an idea.
.
Nerakami at 12:17PM on Apr 24th 2007
49. and oh..by the way, if a million angels or one angel decide to dance on the head of a pin... it is done... before the thought is even completed as they are not confined to the restraints of physical form nor time for that matter. In case you didn't know, angels LOVE to dance as they glorify any activity that brings humans joy... and for the most part humans are joyful when dancing. So here's to the dance of angels on the head of a pin just cos you asked!
Nerakami at 12:32PM on Apr 24th 2007
50. Angels are in the Gosepl. The Angel Gabriel announces to Mary that she is carrying God's son, Jesus. Christians believe the gospel -- the good news of Jesus Christ. Blessed are those who do not see and believe. Yes, we have faith in angels, God and life after death. We are happy in this knowledge. Hopefully, it drives us to make good decisions so we can share in heaven.
If you disbelieve in the Gospel, you won't accept this as proof of angels. Yet, how can you prove that they do not exist? You cannot. You merely say "I do not believe." It is your choice and your free will. We say "Yes, we do believe." Yes, there is a greater good. Yes, there is a higher power in charge. When there is a tragedy, I can find whatever postive action is available and after that, I can pray and I am comforted in my smallness.
Rose at 1:36PM on Apr 24th 2007
51. Rose: Whereas you’ve made it clear that you believe in The Gospel, then no doubt you believe (Matthew 5, 18):
“Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law [of Moses] and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has happened.”
Consequently, maybe you could help Ed Tyler. Recently he wrote the following letter to the radio talk-show host “Dr. Laura”, seeking guidance, but apparently she provided no help. If you’d answer his questions and post them here, I’ll do my best to make sure that he sees them.
Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
• When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them??
• I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her??
• I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.?
• Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
• I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
• A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
• Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here??
• Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
• I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves??
• My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
[Ed. Tyler]
zoro at 3:43PM on Apr 24th 2007
52. zoro - I thought your Dr. Laura comment was one of the best I've seen in the blogs! Kudos, Phil
Phil at 4:05PM on Apr 24th 2007
53. The Douche Bag rides again!
You may find this surprising, Dinesh, but despite being an atheist, I actually think Dawkins is almost as big a douche bag as you are.
http://themproject.blogspot.com/2007/04/manifesto-of-radically-boring-atheist.html
And just in case you wanted to know why you are completely wrong about atheists, you can click here to be educated.
http://themproject.blogspot.com/2007/04/myths-about-atheism.html
Bucky at 4:33PM on Aug 13th 2007
54. Actually, the answer is, "All of them." You'd think a someone as self-righteous as you would know that.
And can I ask why it's necessary for theists and atheists to ridicule one another? It's not provable one way or another. To exist, God requires faith (see "babel fish"). To use the logic God gave us is to ultimately reject faith as a reason for anything. But so what? It's only when we try to force beliefs on one another that things get out of hand. The beliefs themselves are innocent.
bullet at 5:25PM on Apr 24th 2007
55. Simply put. Jesus did not abolish the law as in the Ten Commandments, but he admonished those who followed it without love. For example, Jesus was criticized for healing on the Sabbath by Pharisees. One of your examples is an old law punishment for working on the Sabbath. You mention sacrifice of a bull. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice that makes those sacrifices unnecessary so you can stop with the bulls on the bbq. Clearly you didn't expect a refutation of all things Old Testament as you know that with the New Testament or New Covenant made in Jesus' blood, God made all things new. We worship Sunday instead of Saturday since that day became holy with Jesus' resurrection. God is available to us all. He is not behind the veil in the temple sanctuary. How many times do you forgive someone? Jesus made it clear that you never stop forgiving. Jesus let us know that we are only slaves to our own sin, but our sin can infect the community. Follow Jesus' example, Zoro, you'll feel better about yourself.
Rose at 9:10PM on Apr 24th 2007
56.
Ding ding ding, you're right on Bullet.
There's no reason to berate each other over this because there is no answer. You cannot debate reason with faith because they are exclusive of one another. Thus there is no reason to even bring this up. I think Dinesh just wanted to take a swipe at a form of belief he is intolerant of knowing there would be no result from this debate. Personally I think most of the comments here exposed that quite nicely.
Peter at 11:59PM on Apr 24th 2007
57. Peter wrote: "There's no reason to berate each other over this because there is no answer. You cannot debate reason with faith because they are exclusive of one another."
That one has faith that a claim is true is irrelevant to whether I am warranted in inferring that it is true. Some people have faith that they have been abducted by aliens, and I'm quite sure that they have not been. Some people have faith that the known universe is about 10,000 years old, and I'm quite sure it is billions of years old. Some people have faith that a snake talked to Eve, and I'm quite sure that didn't happen. Some people have faith that the earth is a flat disk that rests on the back of a giant tortoise, and I'm quite sure that the earth is not a flat disk that rests on the back of a giant tortoise. Therefore that one has faith that there is one or more Gods is irrelevant to whether I'm warranted in inferring that there is one or more Gods.
Wes at 7:23PM on Apr 25th 2007
58. Bullet wrote: "It's not provable one way or another."
At the moment I cannot PROVE that there is not a God. But many claims that I cannot at the moment prove to be true are ones that I'm warranted in inferring are true. For example, I cannot prove that the continents that are Africa and South America used to be connected, but I'm warranted in inferring that they used to be connected. Thus, that I cannot at the moment prove that there is not a God does not make me I'm unwarranted in inferring that there is not a God.
In fact, some people say that nothing can be proven except claims like all bachelors are unmarried males. Although I tend to disagree with this, there are a large body of claims that I cannot prove with certainty that I'm warranted in inferring are true. For instance, that a meteor event contributed to the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Wes at 7:46PM on Apr 25th 2007
59. It's all so phoney of you theists, religionists, to attempt logic... when you know, deep down in your heart of hearts that science 'killed' GOD a long time ago.
God is simply the mystery of puberty explained by ignorant 'wise men.'
I urge you to read the Bible in that context, God can be testosterone personified and God can be estrogen personified. (Whichever the scripture writer was thinking at the time.)
"Angels on the head of a pin." ... are you such a buffoon that you don't know the difference between dreams and reality? Yes, 'dreams are real', but you're taking THAT out of context... and you know it... just as much as you guys whine when reality-based people take the Bible 'out of context.'
To enlighten the incredibly dense... dreams are real to the extent that they happen, they are a phenomenon. But the 'images' and 'meanings' of dreams are not real in the sense that they must exist separate from the dream phenomenon.
God, angels, demons and Satan are real in the sense that you can imagine them, like in a dream... but in that sense... everything and anything that you might imagine is 'real.'
You are simply bandying words and semantics, confusing the issue of what is real and what is imagination, or dreams... 'cos that's all you've got.... and that is not logical... my 'friend'... not logical at all.
pboyfloyd at 7:31PM on May 1st 2007