16. So let me get this straight. We Christians profess to believe in an all powerful all knowing God of the universe. Yet this God, according to people who take the Bible literally, takes six days to create the world. Why not six hours, or six minutes, or six seconds? Could not such a powerful God just say the word and all would come about in the blink of an eye? And to top it off this "god" is pooped at the end of it so he has to take a break.
Look, believe what you want. But why can't God work through processes like "evolution" why can't God reveal himself to us in ways that let us grow and discover new things. And since when is the belief in creationism a prerequisite for salvation? The story of creation is just that. A story. And as Christians we should not be as concerned about HOW it happened, but THAT it happened. The real point of the first few chapters of Genesis is that it shows how mankind fell away from God and the promise of a redeemer.
How does arguing creation vs evolution play a part in that? Oh and one more thing:

Robert at 4:34AM on May 5th 2007

17. Sorry, I had no follow up to oh and one more thing.
except to say there's my baseless rant. And I think the candidates should be more focused on the issues rather than their personal beliefs.
Thanks

Robert at 4:39AM on May 5th 2007

18. Theory in science is not defined in the way most opponents of evolution use it; theory is nearly synonymous with fact with the exception that the case remains open to the possibility of fine tuning based on new information. Even with things we consider fact this is the case. We have limited ways to perceive the cosmic soup we exist within, and to assume we understand all aspects of things we deem laws/facts is to close your mind to future opportunities to learn. And, so, even our perception of gravity needs to remain open to change, much like evolution. Though in in the end it's scientific theory, not layman's theory, so we can be relatively sure that we've got it right for the most part.

tso at 7:54PM on May 5th 2007

19. Robert,

Good luck. The candidates will actually focus more on their posture and hair, because those are the things that separate the presidents from the also-rans. Issues??

lil_turk at 5:29PM on May 5th 2007

20. @ dani (comment #3) and all you other faith-based people.

Okay, one more time for the really really stupid.
Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact.

The Theory is... Natural Selection.

It is.. the THEORY of evolution by NATURAL SELECTION

Not... the THEORY of EVOLUTION by natural selection.

The fact that all animals, birds, insects, bacteria... and even plants are interrelated is so bloody obvious it is stupid to keep on playing this 'just a theory' game.

Darwin noticed natural selection in action on his trip on the Beagle.
Wallace noticed natural selection in action under completely different settings.

Today 'flu shots' are an effort to stop natural selection. If a nasty flu comes to select a portion of the population for death, the shot is an effort to block this natural force.

Doctors are constantly looking for natural agents in your body to prevent those natural agents from selecting you out. Doctors call this curing people.

The Bible has an answer for natural selection too... it calls any disease agent which selects you for death... a 'demon.'

Write that word down and ask your clergyman about it. Later ask your doctor about it. It will be an interesting comparison.

According to the Bible and Jesus, disease agents such as bacteria and viruses were evil demons which either left your body voluntarily or you might die. A healer had to cast these demons out.

So, what are you going to do when you get sick, believe the scientists and go to the doctor, or believe the Bible and go to a faith-healer?

Dani, going to a faith healer will cut your pharmacy bills down to zero... give it a go, let me know how that works out for you.

pboyfloyd at 10:05PM on May 5th 2007

21. As a Roman Catholic, I am glad the Vatican has not jumped in on this one. Arguing about evolution seems a collossal waste of time and effort.
--------------------
From GK Chesterton essay (circa late 1920's):

"...the Pope does not pronounce on the question of Evolution for the simple reason that the question is not sufficiently important. People like Dr. Barnes still suppose it is supremely important; but that is provincial prejudice. It is of course immensely interesting to those whose business it is to be interested in it; as the smallest star in the Nebula of Andromeda is intensely interesting to an astronomer; or the minutest shade of variety in duckweed may be of vast importance to a botanist. That sort of really scientific science the Church entirely approves, often munificently patronizes and, for the most part, very wisely lets alone. But it is not essential that the guardian of faith and morals should pronounce upon duckweed. ..."
--------------------

Ken Berg at 10:45AM on May 7th 2007

22. Evolutionists BUILD us a living cell.


If evolutionists want to end the arguments all they need do is, get their brilliant heads together and assemble a 'simple' living cell. This should be possible, because today they certainly have a very great amount of knowledge about the contents of the so-called 'simple' cell.

After all, shouldn't all the combined Intelligence of all the worlds scientist be able the do what chance encounters with random chemicals, without a set of instructions, accomplished about 4 billion years ago, 'according to the evolutionists,' and having no intelligence at all available to help them along in their quest to become a living entity. Surely the evolutionists scientists of today should be able to make us a 'simple' cell.

If it weren't so pitiful it would be humorous, that intelligent people have swallowed the evolution mythology.

Beyond doubt, the main reason people believe in evolution is that sources they admire, say it is so. It would pay for these people to do a thorough examination of all the evidence CONTRARY to evolution that is readily available: Try answersingenesis.org. The evolutionists should honestly examine the SUPPOSED evidence 'FOR' evolution for THEMSELVES.

Build us a cell, from scratch, with the required raw material, that is with NO cell material, just the 'raw' stuff, and the argument is over. But if the scientists are unsuccessful, perhaps they should try Mother Earth's recipe, you know, the one they claim worked the first time about 4 billion years ago, so they say. All they need to do is to gather all the chemicals that we know are essential for life, pour them into a large clay pot and stir vigorously for a few billion years, and Walla, LIFE!

Oh, you don't believe the 'original' Mother Earth recipe will work? You are NOT alone, Neither do I, and MILLIONS of others!

James Collins at 12:19PM on May 7th 2007

23. There is so much wrong w/ Mr Collins' comments above that I do not know where to start. Just a couple for brevity's sake:
1. What does the recreation of a single cell in the lab have to do with whether evolution is real or not?? Nothing. Even if it did, why say that evolution has been proven false just because we do not have the technology to recreate it now? This kind of 'God of the Gaps' argument as been used forever. 'We can't understand it so Gawd must have done it!' Thank goodness that many people don't have this mentality so that things like the Internet can be developed by wanting to find answers to problems rather than just sayint that God did it.
2. MILLIONS of others don't believe evolution. So? Science isn't a high school popularity contest, it is based on theories & facts. MILLIONS of people believed at one time that the Earth was flat, does that make it true? Apparently it does for a group of Christian Fundamentalists, but nobody else.

Lee Rader at 12:43PM on May 7th 2007

24. A quick note to those who cannot imagine how Christians can believe what we do.

The fact that you personally do not understand something does not mean it is false.

Also, it is true that many Christians have a hard time explaining themselves and their beliefs, and that of course is a shame. However for the non-believer, again it is important not to fly off the handle at this.

Keep in mind that just because you do not understand something and, because someone else is not good at explaining it, does not make it false.

If you really are interested in trying to understand people of faith, I suggest you read the papal encyclicals. They go all the way back to ancient days, have been translated into english, are available on the iternet, and are a treasure for anyone who seeks truth and is interested in understanding Christianity.

Ken Berg at 4:56PM on May 7th 2007

25. I still see a lot of confusion on evolution from these comments. Evolution isn't 'just a theory'. A scientific theory is as close to fact as you can get (so yes it's comparable to the theory of gravity). Creation science has been debunked time and again as religion, but evolution is solid scientific fact. To deny evolution at this point is to embrace stupidity. If you really want to understand evolution then read a biology book not your christian web sites!

Matthew at 7:19AM on May 8th 2007

26. Oh Matthew, you are more intelligent than you came off in that post. A better way of stating your view might have been:

"I still see a lot of confusion on evolution from these comments. [I do not think that] Evolution is 'just a theory'. A scientific theory is as close to fact as you can get (so yes it's comparable to the theory of gravity) . [It seems to me] Creation science has been debunked time and again as religion, but [I think] evolution is solid scientific fact. [I think that] to deny evolution at this point is to embrace stupidity. If you really want to understand evolution then read a biology book not your christian web sites!
-------
Now, if folks want to think they came from monkeys, while others want to think they were created wholly separate from wild animals, and by God Almighty, that is fine too. Since neither side can prove their case definitively, in my opinion the whole argument and the religious and secular hissy fits that accompany it are a huge waste of time and energy. As to what a publicly paid school teacher ought to present to kids in Biology class, I was taught the Theory of Evolution with very little fanfare. Early in the lesson the teacher simply and in a straightforward, non-controversial manner commented that the Theory of Evolution was a very widely held scientific theory, and that is was separate from whatever religious convictions we or our parents held. In any case, we were responsible to read the lesson on Evolution and do our homework at the dn of the lesson, and answer any quiz and/or test questions as per the information presented in his lecture and in the textbook.

Remember Matthew, just because you say something, does not make it so.

; )

Ken Berg at 1:40PM on May 8th 2007

27. "25. I still see a lot of confusion on evolution from these comments. Evolution isn't 'just a theory'. A scientific theory is as close to fact as you can get (so yes it's comparable to the theory of gravity). Creation science has been debunked time and again as religion, but evolution is solid scientific fact. To deny evolution at this point is to embrace stupidity. If you really want to understand evolution then read a biology book not your christian web sites!"

Well I wouldn't grant evolution (common ancestry of all living things) status as a scientific theory, since there is no evidence of it. In fact there are no hypotheses with supporting observations at all which cannot also be understood within a Biblical creation model.

What valid hypotheses have ever led to evolution changing from "bright idea" to scientific theory. The change has all been through publicity, propaganda, ridicule and intimidation.

Creation science hasn't been "debunked" as religion, creaiton science proudly admits that its foundational axiom and assumptions are accepted by faith. It is evolution whose proponents do not know or admit that their foundational axioms and assumptions are accepted by faith, fiat or default.

dhpd at 2:02PM on May 12th 2007

28. I'm going to answer #16 point by point. Some good questions and lots of misunderstanding!

"16. So let me get this straight. We Christians profess to believe in an all powerful all knowing God of the universe. Yet this God, according to people who take the Bible literally, takes six days to create the world. Why not six hours, or six minutes, or six seconds? Could not such a powerful God just say the word and all would come about in the blink of an eye? And to top it off this "god" is pooped at the end of it so he has to take a break."

This argument about the six days or the blink of an eye was current in Martin Luther's day (1500's). The answer is in Exodus 20:11. "... in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

That is to say, God rested on the seventh (sabbath) day to set a pattern that would be good for us. The weekly day of rest is God's gift or blessing for human benefit.

Continuing: "Look, believe what you want. But why can't God work through processes like "evolution" why can't God reveal himself to us in ways that let us grow and discover new things."

Of course God "could" work whatever way he pleases. However, the Biblical creationist understands that God has told us the history of creation in the Bible. That the historical description in God's Word doesn't allow for evolution is most easily understood in how death is defined and understood.

Evolutionists believe that death is a significant part of the mechanism that "created" us, that is, some things died and others lived on, etc.

In the Bible, death is a consequence of sin. One verse (of several) that says this is Romans 5:12, "... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ..."

Next section: "And since when is the belief in creationism a prerequisite for salvation?"

I didnt' see anyone say this here, I could have missed it. Belief in creationism is not required for salvation, trusting Christ's death for one's sin and receiving his gift of forgiveness and eternal life is.

But I will say that faith can only be logical if death is from sin. Faith need not be logical, but it's hard to explain it to someone else, as we are instructed to do, if it's illogical.

Penultimate section: "The story of creation is just that. A story. And as Christians we should not be as concerned about HOW it happened, but THAT it happened. The real point of the first few chapters of Genesis is that it shows how mankind fell away from God and the promise of a redeemer."

The Genesis historical narrative and various other significant Bible passages explain both how and why. You are right that the fall is important. But if it is how can you believe that death created us?

You can believe both, I suppose, but it's inconsistent.

And finally: "How does arguing creation vs evolution play a part in that?"

By helping everyone to understand what the good news of Christ is. (Especially that his death is the death we are penalized for our sin.)

If our statements of faith are logically consistent, a person has a much better chance to decide. Remember Luke 12:51, "Do you think that I came to bring peace to earth? No indeed! I came to make people choose sides." (CEV)

dhpd at 1:57PM on May 12th 2007

29. @ James Collins (comment 21)

You said, " Evolutionists BUILD us a living cell."

It's not their job to do that. Scientists trying to do that would be called abiogenesists. The fact that IS evolution does not hang on the success or failure of a demonstration of abiogenesis.

The new science of genetics has backed up the fact of evolution 100% and continues to back it up with much research being done.... one instance and only one instance of a reproducable experiment proving that all life was not connected... would bring evolution down into the realm of fantasy.

Some christian scientists... together with all their 'band-wagon-jumper-on'ers do nothing to disprove evolution and simply propose that God is a God of ever tinier gaps in our knowledge.

So... Christians... get together ... and pray for a mountain to move... then scientists will believe that there is something to it. (not just an earthquake either, you're not gonna get off on a technicality.)

pboyfloyd at 4:13PM on May 12th 2007

30. In regard to #29:

There is no empirical evidence for evolution either.

Every bit of empirical evidence can be understood in a Biblical creation model and (I suspect) in an evolution model.

dhpd at 8:50PM on May 16th 2007