Pakistani Christians are receiving threats from the Taliban to convert to Islam or die. Here we see the difference between radical and traditional Islam. In traditional Islam it is never acceptable to force anyone to convert. The Koran says "there shall be no compulsion in religion" and this has been understood, by all the mainstream schools, to mean that one should freely choose to become a Muslim. No Muslim empire has historically enforced mass conversion.
Typically Muslim empires have distinguished between conquering a country and bringing it under Islamic rule and law--this is allowed--and forcing people to become Muslims--this is not allowed. The Islamic radicals, in trying to compel conversions on pain of death, are breaking with the Koran and the Islamic tradition. Only two schools of Koranic interpretation--the Bin Laden school and the Robert Spencer school--consider Taliban-style "convert or die" jurisprudence to be consistent with what the Prophet Muhammad taught and what the Koran says.
There is a problem with traditional Islam, but it doesn't concern converting in but rather converting out. Classical Islam allows voluntary entry into Islam, but once you're in you cannot leave. Indeed the traditional remedy for apostasy is death. (No wonder Rushdie got into so much trouble.) I don't think this is consistent with any Western understanding of religious freedom. Fortunately there are traditional Muslims like Tariq Ramadan who are calling for a reassessment of these teachings, not in the name of secularism or liberalism but in the name of a renewed Islam that is well adapted to the needs of the twenty-first century.
Islam is growing worldwide, as is Christianity. What we have here is what Hayek once called "a framework of competing utopias." The faith that wins is not the one that bullies its opponents but the one that wins them over with hope for a better life. No other religions have the evangelical power of Islam and Christianity. Buddhism seems only to be growing among disaffected Europeans, and in Hollywood. HInduism and Judaism don't even aspire to make converts. If traditional Muslims want Christians to protect their rights in Christian countries, they must protect Christians from the assaults of the radicals in Muslim countries. Bush should convey this message to General Musharraf and to the Muslims of Pakistan.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 4)
16. ISLAM means "SURRENDER". It always has! Nothing has changed in 1200 years of Islamic world conquest and expansion by the sword. Anyone who tries to be apologetic for "radicals" within Islam has not read the recitations of Mohammed, and is either a pro-Islamic propagandist or a fool.
Rusty at 2:52PM on May 17th 2007
17. The crusades were horribly wrong, but give me a break -- they occured hundreds of years ago, when fortunately weapons of mass destruction were not available. Since then, most of the secular and non-secular world have learned fundamental lessons and grown far more compassionate and tolerant WITH THE GLARING AND HIGHLY FRIGHTENING EXCEPTION OF COUNTRIES WITH LARGE ISLAMIC MAJORITIES.
Why haven't "moderate" Muslims spoken up? THEY DON'T WANT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES TO BE MURDERED, THAT'S WHY! Moderate Muslims are rightly afraid to speak out. Leaders of Iran (and others) have not only condoned, but sanctioned MURDER.
OF COURSE there are "nice" Muslims -- I have kind/compasionate Muslim friends in the US, but right now, in the rest of the world, they are either in the minority, or they DON'T HAVE THE GUNS AND CAR BOMBS, and regardless of which is the case, the non-Muslim world is in great danger.
Western countries with liberal and compassionate immigration policies are being paid back for their compassion by by being torn apart from within by their new Muslim "constituents". I put the word "constituents" in quotes because these people don't vote, THEY BOMB. Free speech? No, blasphemy, KILL the journalist! Vote for our country to pull out of Iraq? No, BOMB SOME TRAINS! Disagree with a policy? TAKE SOME HOSTAGES!
Phil and others are "turn the other cheek" Christian Ostriches, and when the first Islamic nuclear weapon is detonated (Iranian most likely), and it's coming, their severed heads, lying beneath the glazed sand, will be their only earthly remains.
Iran, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Algeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia: Public opinion in these countries is DANGEROUSLY anti-Western. With "Western" meaning "Non-Islamic", and "dangerous" because they want to ACT on their "opinions" by KILLING us! I have a problem with that. And they (these militant MAJORITIES) TELL us they want to kill us. They aren't sneaky at least.
Is "irony" the right word for the following observation? [I'm really not sure]: Most of the so called "Moderate" countries with a large Islamic majority are either NOT democracies, or just barely so. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan spring to mind. The most dangerous (IMHO) appear to be the so called "Islamic Republics": Iran, and Afghanistan until SO justly "cleaned house" of the Taliban dirt-balls, who used their internationally funded soccer stadium, not for soccer but for executions!
The "Phils" of the world, like Neville Chamberlain, can actually cause great harm with their "Ostrich like behavior." They want SO much to see the good in people that they just KNOW must be there, that by the time they FINALLY come to their senses (IF EVER), it can very well be too late.
Let's hope that doesn't end up being the case here.
Greg at 3:04PM on May 17th 2007
18. Poster Mary Joan, you are completely correct, there is one type of Islam, and it does promote violence. Our nation is blinded by politcal correctness. We are told to accept Islam, if we don't we are racist and hateful. I don't see any of us going to their country and blowing up their buildings or threatening them to convert or die, but it's ok for them to do that but if a Christian talks about Jesus we have to keep our mouths shut, thanks ACLU, the very people you defend want you dead!
e lopez at 3:01PM on May 17th 2007
19. Christians like to believe that they have a monopoly on tolerance and acceptance....that they do not have extremist tendencies. A previous poster claimed that Christians are not killing thousands of people around the world. Lets not forget Serbia in 90's. The Government and military systematically killed thousands of Bosnian Muslims and Croat Catholics because they were not Orthodox. Where was the Christian tolerance then? Lets look at Ireland. The IRA battle with the Prodestants was another modern occurance of Catholics and Prodestants bringing faith into politics and killings so many people. Hitler anyone? I think we need to look at ourselves before we criticize others. And keep in mind, just as we cannot say that the IRA represents the Catholic Church, we cannot label Osama and the Taliban as representative of Islam. Islam has so many diverse interpretations...both on the Shi'ite and Sunni sides. The range between Wahabi Islam and the many different Sufi interpretations (highly esoteric) of Islam are so vide that the only things they have in common are Muhammad and Koran. Beyond these two, you would have the feeling that you're looking at two completely different religions....say comparing Buddhism to Judaism. Yet all claim to be devout Muslims. We as Americans need to educate ourselves better before we paint everyone with a common brush stroke. Fear and generalization will be our undoing.
Sean
Sean at 3:14PM on May 17th 2007
20. To Sean, in your own words you said the Serbian government killed thousands. It wasn't Christians that did it. Any one can call themselves a Christian, but a true Christian is a follower of Christ. Jesus told us that people would know us by our love for one another. Islam says death to infidels (non-believers). Which one would you rather follow? A message of hope and love or one of death and hate?
e lopez at 3:40PM on May 17th 2007
21. Hardly a day goes by without a Muslim somewhere committing mass murder of innocent men, women and children. If you actually believe Islam to be a religion of peace -- if you actually believe that it preaches that Islam should tolerate the existence of other religions -- I suggest you travel to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or any other Islamic country and try telling that to the people in the streets. You'll be dead within minutes.
All it takes is a false story of a flushed Koran, a series of drawings of Mohammed, or something equally innocuous and millions of murderously hostile Muslims are in the streets burning cars, destroying property and killing anyone that gets in their way.
You should all go to JihadWatch and read "Islam 101". Learn about the Islamic principle of abrogation, by which Mohammed's later violent commands to spread Islam by the sword cancel and negate the much-earlier Sura that says "There is no compulsion in religion."
D'Souza consistently misrepresents what Spencer says. Go to JihadWatch and read for yourself.
Michael Smith at 4:18PM on May 17th 2007
22. Hey Johnny O,
No doubt, you are an astute historian. So, pray tell, when exactly was the Inquisition? Lefties and Islamophiles love to trot out Christian atrocities from HUNDREDS of years ago (or foolishly and erroneously suggested Hitler was a Christian).
And after you have gone out on the internet to find the correct time period, why don't you tell us the last time a Muslim blew him or heself up or that a Christian was killed or persecuted by a Muslim in a Muslim country. I think you'll find it was just hours ago. Hell, it could have just happened as both these things occur EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Stop living in Lewis Carroll land and join reality. Islam is dangerous NOW. Today. It is the biggest threat facing Western Civilization. And we will have little choice but to kill many of them before all of this is over just to save ourselves.
There is nothing sadder than reading the thoughts of all the Neville Chamberlains that lurk on sites like these. You people are more than pathetic. You are dangerous. Your ignorance hurts the safety of our country specifically and the West generally.
blu at 4:13PM on May 17th 2007
23. Sean,
Your ignorance would be humorous if this wasn't a serious topic. The Serbs were not fighting a religioius war. The IRA is not fighting a religious war. Nobody believes that they are. They don't say they are. The Islamists are fighting a religious war. They tell you they are. Get a clue.
And are you the ignoramous who tried to link Christianity and Hitler? My goodness, ignorance is bliss. Hilter despised religion and Christianity.
blu at 4:12PM on May 17th 2007
24. It's very simple folks.Religion and government do not belong together.There is no reason what so ever that government should be based on centuries old spiritual mumbo jumbo.People thought lightning storms were acts of GOD when mainstream religion was accepted as a way to control the populace.Force feeding Islam down peoples throats is no different than dictatorships through the ages using people as pawns .There is not, and never will be any sort of democracy in a true Islamic state,so tell me folks just where are the 2 Islams?
skitractor at 4:16PM on May 17th 2007
25. "No Muslim empire has historically enforced mass conversion."
Aurangzeb, the Mughal Emperor is known for his aim for conversion of non-muslims to muslims.
Simar at 10:10PM on May 17th 2007
26. As a Trade Tower widow, I am always astonished by the myopic liberals who want to believe that we are all the same. Tell that to my husband and the 3 thousand other CIVILIANS killed with him on Sept. 11th. Killed just because he was an American, without provocation. For the voicers who want to talk about past Christian atrocities, well folks, that was what, 500 or 700 years ago???? How many abortion clinics have EVER been blown up in the US?? One? By one nut? Christianity as a whole learned from its mistakes and evolved more tolerance. In what country can you say that about Islam? Nowhere.How have they evolved in the past 700 years? Now that they have immigrated here, they have started to practice their intolerance here as well. Have you heard about the Muslim taxi drivers in Michigan who refuse to carry anyone who has purchased duty free alcohol? Or the Muslim cashier in Target recently who refused to bag a customer's bacon because she was forbidden to touch it?? How long will it be before they refuse to serve Christians, Jews, or women, or whatever other belief they want protected in their "religion" .Is this not treating people as second class citizens, and why should we tolerate it here?? In France they wanted the public schools to prevent boys and girls from learning together. The French stopped them cold. Its about time we woke up to the reality that we have people in our midst who DO NOT practice tolerance in an American manner. Give them an inch and they'll take a yard. If there ARE moderate Muslims, I have never heard one speak up against Muslim atrocities. Islam is on par with Stalinism and Nazism. Its past time for people to speak up and say so.
Leslie at 4:32PM on May 17th 2007
27. Greg, I never said to "turn the other cheek" as a matter of fact I am a huge proponent of routing out the violent and radical extremists. I will be the first person to take up arms against WHOEVER threatens my home eminently. The only reason i walked off of that enlistment line on 9/11 was that fact that I have family here who need protection and support first.
My point is that christains are not innocent in all of this (Actually, in my opinion ALL orgainized religion is a bad thing. Beliefs should be kept private, spreading them and pushing them on other people is what gets messes like this started in the first place.) In the grand scheme of things, its probably 50/50.
"Ostrich like behavior?" I think not, go back and read my posts again, and tell me where it says to live and let live. My point was that killing in the name of God is wrong no matter who does it. Killing to defend yourself, home and country is another story, no matter who it is. As matter of fact if you look at my post to Jeff about the sanctuary issue, my point is that people should want to stay and fight for what is theirs, and that is the right to believe whatever you want.
Phil at 4:33PM on May 17th 2007
28. Religious radicals go back centuries, with Christians trying to convert Jews and Muslims in the Inquisitions and Crusades and if they didn't they would die. Islam used to be the tolerant religion which made it possible for Muslims to rule Europe, Africa and Asia. They used to promote and lead in science(astronomy), math(algebra), and philosophy. The downfall was this extreme radical form of Islam which has caused the fall of this once glorious religion. Muslims have gone backwards and their soceity which once preached tolerance and peace, now teaches hate and destroys any advances in science, math and philosophy.
Rob at 4:47PM on May 17th 2007
29. Let's see, the Jews and Muslims have been at each other since Sarah and her maid Hagar, Christians and Muslims have been growling at each other since some pope decided that he was tired of Christians fighting each other and sent on the Crusades to "win back the Holy Land", from those dastardly Muslims heretics. Okay, so everybody thinks their way is the only right way. You know it seems to me to me, that just about every religion creates a reason for war, so I think I'll just stick to my believe in the fairy folk. At least my fantasy won't require that I force someone to convert or become a paranoid fanatic, Christian or Muslim.
lsto770 at 6:24AM on May 18th 2007
30. There is really not much that can be done to help these people now, but that does not mean these people can't help themselves. It's sorta like the Al-Quaida chumps that claim they got the american soldiers and we should stop looking for them. Why they are most likely going to kill them anyway after they coerce an anti-american sentiment from they. The search must go on and when the abducters are caught old west justice should be served. Back to the point , these Christians should heed the words"love thy neighbor". Forget threats from Islamic Extremists/Fundementalists. Rejoice in the fact that no matter what happens they are saved spiritually.
Don't get me wrong , I would love the Christians to fight back and win. That's probably not going to happen. It's hard to overcome fear of loss and loss of loved ones. Holding strong to your beliefs and being the better person counts for much more than any intimidation practices used by any group of religous bigots.
Thomas Edwards at 4:53PM on May 17th 2007