Rebuffing a demand by leaders of the global Anglican Communion to bring their practices into line with those of traditional Christianity, the executive council of the American Episcopal Church has declared that it prefers "to embrace people who have historically been marginalized."
This is intended to account for the Episcopal church's decision to ordain a gay bishop and open its doors to gays and lesbians, but if that is the stated criterion, aren't we forgetting some other historically marginalized groups here?
--Convicts Who Have Been Found Guilty of Violent Crimes (more marginalized now than ever before)
--Child Molesters (marginalized even within the prison population!)
--Serial Killers (admired in the movies, but otherwise very marginalized since at least the days of Jack the Ripper)
--Pedophiles (so marginalized that even gays keep their distance, and all for holding that there's nothing magical about being "of age")
--Polygamists (marginalized for holding the view, "Why Stop at Two?")
--Skinheads (more marginalized today than the groups they seek to marginalize)
This is hardly a complete list, and I'm sure I'll be hearing shortly from nudists, swingers, wife-swappers, Nazis, and other groups I've left off my list. Even so, I think I've given the folks on the Episocal Church council an excellent place to start. Episcopals have been rapidly losing members in recent decades. The council seem to have now developed a great recovery strategy: to recruit and ordain members of all historically marginalized groups, without regard to whether the beliefs and action of those groups fit in with the traditional Christian agenda. This could prove a winning approach. Think how the Episcopal Church could once again boost its numbers by seeking and ordaining Skinheads, Child Molesters, Polygamists, and Serial Killers!
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 3)
31. I think Jesus also told the sinners to (paraphrasing) "Go now, and sin no more".
Of course the Church welcomes sinners - we are all sinners. Embracing sinners however, does not mean churches want the sinner to continue in his bad or self-destructive behavior. I know the Roman Catholic church tries to get people to change; to change for the better.
A drunk is a good example. Most churches welcome the drunk or the drug addict, but also encourage them to sober up. Some people are born with a tendency toward addiction and become alcoholics. That does not mean however, that we should just say "Oh well, you were born that way and so if you are drunk all the time, that's fine". We correctly try to help the person change for the better.
Ken Berg at 11:17AM on Jun 20th 2007
32. The Episcopal Church doesn't need to recruit child molesters, pedophiles, and felons. The Catholic Church already has.
Donna at 11:48AM on Jun 20th 2007
33. I think Jesus also told the sinners to (paraphrasing) "Go now, and sin no more".
Of course the Church welcomes sinners - we are all sinners. Embracing sinners however, does not mean churches want the sinner to continue in his bad or self-destructive behavior. I know the Roman Catholic church tries to get people to change; to change for the better.
A drunk is a good example. Most churches welcome the drunk or the drug addict, but also encourage him to sober up. Some people are born with a tendency toward addiction and become alcoholics. That does not mean however, that we should just say "Oh well, you were born that way and so if you are drunk all the time, that's fine". We correctly try to help the person change for the better.
Ken Berg at 12:54PM on Jun 20th 2007
34. The Roman Catholic Church as Mr.Berg defines it needs a bit to be desired in the repentance(change for the better) department.
The radical welcome of the Episcopal church does turn upside down the black and white world of Mr.Berg. The dialectical tension we all inhabit has always been expressed in shades of grey in the paradoxes and parables of Jesus, born of a Virgin Mother, Son of God given an ignomous death. Constantly we hear that the humble will be exalted as the exalted will be humbled, that we see the speck in our neighbors eye but not the plank in our own. The repentance Mr. Berg calls for in his false analogies can only be understood in these paradoxical reversals of which Jesus speaks.We are proceeded into Paradise by a theif, our wounds bounded up by a Samaritan, and we are welcomed lavishly by a prostitue. We are called upon to lose our lives in order to save them so that with St Francis we can affirm "that indying we are born to eternal life."
seamus at 5:44AM on Jun 21st 2007
35. From Seamus post #33. The Roman Catholic Church as Mr.Berg defines it needs a bit to be desired in the repentance(change for the better) department.
KB - I am not sure I understand exactly what you are getting at. If you are referring to the scandal of American priests abusing children, the Church is taking steps to heal itself. Also please keep in mind that the failings of men do not invalidate the entire Church. In other words, while the abuse scandal is tragic - especially for the children and the families involved - the fact that of the many hundreds of thousands of honest, good priests, a relatively few deviant priests misused their authority and abused some altar boys does not mean the entire Roman Catholic church should be done away with or thrown on the trash heap of history.
S - The radical welcome of the Episcopal church does turn upside down the black and white world of Mr.Berg.
KB - All churches welcome sinners; the theif the prostitute, we are all sinners; that does not turn upside down my "black and white world". Indeed, I do not live in the sort of "black & white world" you describe. I am simply saying that the Roman Catholic church (and all churches for that matter) correctly welcome sinners and then try to get people to better understand themselves and their relationship with God and to change, or at least to be open to possibility of change; change for the better.
S - The dialectical tension we all inhabit has always been expressed in shades of grey in the paradoxes and parables of Jesus, born of a Virgin Mother, Son of God given an ignomous death. Constantly we hear that the humble will be exalted as the exalted will be humbled, that we see the speck in our neighbors eye but not the plank in our own.
KB - Exactly, and if I may say so, very well put.
S - The repentance Mr. Berg calls for in his false analogies can only be understood in these paradoxical reversals of which Jesus speaks.
KB - Why do you say my (one) analogy about the drunk repenting and changing his ways is false? Please elaborate.
S - We are proceeded into Paradise by a theif, our wounds bounded up by a Samaritan, and we are welcomed lavishly by a prostitue. We are called upon to lose our lives in order to save them so that with St Francis we can affirm "that indying we are born to eternal life."
KB - This is exactly correct. I would add that I particulary like in St. Francis' prayer the part about how we should "..not so much seek ... to be understood, as to understand ..."
I do not understand where (or why) you seem to think we disagree so much.
??
Ken Berg at 11:40AM on Jun 21st 2007
36. # 27, lil_turk, :)
# 31, Donna, Yup!
# 32, my favorite and ever illogical Blogger. The RC Curch is full of pedophiles and "Drunks". My objection to the word "Drunk" won't matter to you one iota. Of course the pedophiles and alcholics in the RC church are PRIESTS, you dimwit! Shuffled about by the Archdiocese for decades and decades, and on and on.
You will meet in the rooms of A.A. and N.A. many Priests, Pastors, Rabbi's. They have stories that would make you cringe. Since you seem to refer to other's as addicts and alcoholics, I presume you consider yourself neither.
Indeed, any demonination worth their salt, welcomes all, as we are all sinner's. Jesus showed Mary Magdaline compassion, he forgave all during his crucifixion. " Forgive them, for they know not what they've done".
I do not believe being gay or a lesbian is a sin, although I am hetero. Their sex lives don't affect my life. Why do you care?
If you want to recover from an addiction, actually a disease, not a lack of self control, you seek help from people that are best suited to help you recover and stay clean. You do not seek a spiritual advisor from a church, synagogue or mosque. Because as an addict we know they are human, as well, and many find themselves with the same disease. When you need surgery you do not seek another who needs surgery, you go to a surgeon.
Tolerance and Humility best suits those of religous beliefs, Sir.
'Gotta love that 'Drunk' thig, it's so fifties! Although, I was born then i suppose having an alcoholic for a Dad, then got clean when I was 21, gave me a good shot at sensitivity.
rhodalee at 11:38AM on Jun 22nd 2007
37. From rhodalee: "# 27, lil_turk, :)
# 31, Donna, Yup!
# 32, my favorite and ever illogical Blogger. The RC Curch is full of pedophiles and "Drunks". My objection to the word "Drunk" won't matter to you one iota. Of course the pedophiles and alcholics in the RC church are PRIESTS, you dimwit! Shuffled about by the Archdiocese for decades and decades, and on and on.
KB - You seem angry and quite frustrated with the Roman Catholic church. Please know that while it is true the Church made mistakes regarding this scandal, that it has been and still is seriously working toward healing now.
R - You will meet in the rooms of A.A. and N.A. many Priests, Pastors, Rabbi's. They have stories that would make you cringe. Since you seem to refer to other's as addicts and alcoholics, I presume you consider yourself neither.
KB - I am not sure what you are getting at here.
R - Indeed, any demonination worth their salt, welcomes all, as we are all sinner's. Jesus showed Mary Magdaline compassion, he forgave all during his crucifixion. " Forgive them, for they know not what they've done".
KB - You are very correct on this point of course.
R - I do not believe being gay or a lesbian is a sin, although I am hetero. Their sex lives don't affect my life. Why do you care?
KB - I do not care, because someone's lifestyle is for the most part, their business. However the fact of the matter is that the Bible, the Pope, most Christian churches, and indeed the majority of non-Christian faiths around the world, throughout history and down to this very day, have held that homosexual actions to be sinful. Keep in mind that since they maintain that homosexual ACTIONS are sins, and not homosexual tendencies (or natures), they have not held "homosexuality" per se to be sinful. Of course one can be homosexual in tendency and if celibate, Not be guilty of sin involving homosexual actions.
R - If you want to recover from an addiction, actually a disease, not a lack of self control, you seek help from people that are best suited to help you recover and stay clean. You do not seek a spiritual advisor from a church, synagogue or mosque. Because as an addict we know they are human, as well, and many find themselves with the same disease.
KB - I understand what you mean here, and tedn to agree that alcoholism usually is not solved soley via faith in God. Some relatives of mine found AA to work the best.
R - When you need surgery you do not seek another who needs surgery, you go to a surgeon.
Tolerance and Humility best suits those of religous beliefs, Sir.
KB - I am not sure what you mean here - "Sir" ?
R - 'Gotta love that 'Drunk' thig, it's so fifties! Although, I was born then i suppose having an alcoholic for a Dad, then got clean when I was 21, gave me a good shot at sensitivity.
KB - Do you mean you sobered up ("got clean") when you were 21 years old, or that your Dad sobered up when you were 21?
Ken Berg at 8:00PM on Jun 22nd 2007
38. I love what god has created in me and I am at peace that I have a place to go where I feel comfortable practicing my christianity. I am able to give back to the world because of it. I will keep you in my prayers as you appear to be in turmoil.You might want to come to my church on Sunday you would be welcomed and you might feel the peace that I feel. 'And also with you'.
Gene at 12:35PM on Jun 24th 2007
39. DD, as you are equating homosexuals with murderers and pedophiles, I think we should add 'Indian men who refuse to marry an Indian wife' to that list of degenerates. Know anyone who fits that description???
RC at 8:00AM on Jul 14th 2007
40. For the record, and to close out this blog subject, American Episcopalians should consider something that happened recently in the Roman Catholic Church:
Part of what drives the preference for celibate clery is the notion that if a priest is married, his attention and efforts are devided between his wife and his family, and God.
I think it is better if priests remain single and celibate. That way they can devote all of their effort and attention to God's work. That is my opinon.
I do understand Greek Cathlics allow priests to marry and I understand the Pope can change this rule. It is not Church doctrine or a matter of faith. It is a man-made rule, nothing more, nothing less.
For the foreseeable future however, it seems Roman Catholic priests will continue to remain single and take a vow of celibacy. All candidates for the Roman priesthood understand this. It is not a secret.
Whether the practice of priests taking a vow of celibacy played a role in this scandal is a good subject for debate; certainly Rome is studying the matter.
I do think it a good idea that Roman Catholic seminaries are now being more careful in screening candidates for the priesthood.
Apparently during the late 60's and 70's when coincidentally, most of the priests who are involved in the child molestation scandal were in seminary, there was a general push (by liberals) to allow or at least consider experimenting with, the idea of letting admitted homosexuals become preists. Nowadays of course, it is these same liberals who are calling for us to do away with the Church. Indeed it seems some of them would like nothing less than to use this scandal and how it was handled (admittedly it was handled very poorly) to justify throwing the entire Roman Church on the trash heap of history. Thankfully that of course will not happen.
In the end, the social experiment of allowing admitted gay men to become Roman clergy has been a collossal failure, and the Roman Catholic Church has learned important lessons, not only about the suitablity of gay clergy, but also about the dangers of trying to hide problems like this. Interestingly enough, the Episcopalians are just now beginning to perform the same experiment and in time, will likely learn similar lessons.
It is too bad they (the Episcopalians) do not just look at the Roman Catholic experience and learn from it.
Ken Berg at 7:41PM on Jul 17th 2007
41. Is there any chance that you're like fire and, if deprived of oxygen, will just fizzle out?
daniel at 12:58PM on Sep 10th 2007