A new poll shows that a majority of Americans believe that gays cannot change their sexual orientation. This can be read in more than one way. But perhaps the most obvious interpretation is that homosexuality is biological or innate, and therefore a certain percentage of people in every society are genetically programmed to be gay.
This view, I think, is simply wrong.
If these practices are genetic, why aren't homosexuality and pederasty prevalent in Greece and Rome today? Has the gene pool changed that much? These questions can be deepened by noting that for the ancients, there was no question of being either heterosexual or homosexual. The Greeks and Romans were both. In other words, Greek and Roman males typically were married and had families, yet these same married men also had sexual liaisons with younger boys.
I'm sure if someone in those days conducted a poll, the Greeks and Romans would confidently proclaim their sexual practices "natural." If you told the ancient Athenians that other societies weren't into pederasty like they were, chances are they would laugh and say that obviously pederasts in other cultures were concealing their true inclinations. With the same cultural myopia, we think that since there are homosexuals in our society, and since they clearly aren't whimsically "choosing" to be homosexual, therefore homosexuality must be biological and innate. But this is a non-sequitur, and history suggests that it is not so.
Reader Comments ( Page 7 of 33)
91. What would happen to blue eyed people in society if they stopped reproducing? They would eventually die out, right? I know of no true homoxexual males who reproduced with true lesbians. Wouldn't we need this in order for homosexuality to continue if it was really genetic? Maybe the gene is recessive, some would argue. Still, it seems that the majority, if not all gays are not born to even one gay parent. From a strictly scientific view, being gay can't be genetic.
I'm not saying that it isn't hard for people to change, I'm not saying it isn't impossible for some to change, and some don't want to change, but whether something is hard to change is not the test for whether it is genetic. If this were true then child molesters must be born that way because the rate for re-offense is horrendous. Anybody's sexuality can be hard to control, it an extremely powerful force.
Jackie Macgirvin at 1:50PM on Jun 28th 2007
92. I just like to add this thought, have anybody seen a homosexual animal of any kind or race. This is a wrong human behavior, totaly diviated from the truth, which is woman was created for men, and viseversa.
SofiaD at 2:20PM on Jun 28th 2007
93. I doubt anyone who's reading will actually get to this comment by now.
But let me tell you of the interpertation to that glimpse of history above seen, which I was exposed to as the "likely truth."
Yes we can bash Christians here. But if it hadn't been them, there would have been some OTHER religous or political group to anti-DIFFERENCE us into the next world. IMO.
The conclusions drawn from this in HS, in class, were: the environment obviously shapes how we *think* of interpersonal relationships, and that while a small percentage of the human population is Very heterosexual, and a small portion is Highly homosexual, the vast majority of humans are bi-sexual.
And due to societial pressures, cannot express or even consciously acknowledge this attraction which *most* people experience when appreciating the appearance of, well, anyone.
Even if it isn't true, it's certainly something to think about. Sigh! .....And yes, I live in California. It doesn't mean I'm wrong, lol!
Aine at 1:54PM on Jun 28th 2007
94. D'Souza writes: "He thinks it is unfavor to the older men!"
"Unfavor"?? Migawd, we have an illiterate pretender occupying the seat of the Rishwain Fellow of the Hoover Institute of Stanford University! Provosts, unmask him for the poseur he surely must be!
Or if not poseur, then inexcusably sloppy and bereft of academic rigor -- and equally unworthy of his exalted position.
And here's a sapient observation from one of the commenters:
"The answer to homosexuality, or any sexual behavior is spiritual."
Haah? "The answer"? Sexuality is a natural fact -- not a question.
Bill Larniston at 1:57PM on Jun 28th 2007
95.
Do you know the brain is the main sexual organ, in humans at least? It's precisely the shallowness and boring limitations, like those that you boast in your ideas, what makes me chose to be a dike over standing a ghastly boring dick. Get a life.
mariana at 2:03PM on Jun 28th 2007
96. It's good to know that even now, ignorance is widespread.
Honestly, how can one believe that simply because one society ages ago actually practiced a perfectly acceptable *form* of homosexuality that homosexuality as it exists now must be considered a choice? Why do you think the practice originated in the ancient Greek societies, hmm? Perhaps because a segment of the male population was *attracted to men*. Y'know, they were *gay*.
I have to agree with the points made by others - to claim being gay cannot be genetic simply because it actually occurred in historical times in a different way then it does now is not only the height of ignorance, it's a blatant grasp at justifying homophobia. You are either a colossal idiot, or a man deeply in the closet. I can think of no other reasons why a so-called man of intellect would believe something that falls apart when logic is applied to it.
Also, homosexuality, as far as I know, wasn’t exactly ‘widespread’ in ancient times. Yes, the rich participated in it to a rather large degree, but there were those who did not, even among them. Just as now, there were those who were attracted to others of the same gender, and those who were not. In fact, it was more that those who *did* enjoy the pleasures of another man were not frowned upon, not that every Greek back then was gay and now they’re all not. Society changed; the people themselves didn’t.
After all, where would the lesbians be in this analogy? The ancient Greeks didn’t recognize gay women, so what – did they just not exist? That’s impossible. So if lesbians weren’t acknowledged very much then and they are in basically the same situation now, would that mean that they are the only form of homosexuality to be based in genetics? After all, the societal acceptance of gay men is the only thing that changed between then and now; not their numbers, not anything else. So are lesbians, who always get ignored by society, the only ‘natural’ gay people in the world?
I trust you see how silly a question that is.
Please tell me you also see the huge inadequacies in the spurious reasoning you’ve given. Being gay cannot be considered something that occurs just on the turn of societal acceptance or condemnation, or else homosexuality wouldn’t appear in all its many forms in so many societies that openly disapprove of it. If it had been something only ‘indulged in’ while it was acceptable, and not an inherit trait in some people, it would have died out when it started being persecuted and punished by the church. We wouldn’t have gays, lesbians, and bisexuals now if society had to be accepting for homosexuality to exist, because newsflash – our society in particular isn’t all that accepting *now*.
Your theory makes absolutely no sense. Between the illogical assumptions I (and others) have already pointed out, not to mention the fact that you base your theory on *one* ancient society alone, I don’t see how you can believe what you do. No scientific or historical facts back up your claim.
You are, to borrow a phrase, simply wrong.
GhostHelwig at 2:02PM on Jun 28th 2007
97. Dineash you are simply a bigot. You would prefer to engage in twisted historical analogies that have no relevance to scientific fact. You seem to conveniently forget the revolutionary impact the Christian church had on previously acceptable behaviour. Any tradition that smacked of the old gods or ways was simply destroyed. The bigotry manifested in descrimination of gays by the church was also used to enforce compliance to dogma.
However, if the church was effective in inhibiting homosexual activity or desire, they wouldn't have such an issue hiding pedophlia in the priest hood. The behaviour was simply pushed underground and behind the stone walls of the church.
The scientific method has lifted us somewhat from the constraints of medieval thinking. Dinesh you want to drag us back into the gutter of religious barbarism and superstition.
Dale F at 2:05PM on Jun 28th 2007
98. I am in complete agreement with many of the points raised by Mr. D'Souza in this article. Sadly, because of our extremely vocal anti-homophobic, paranoid society, I must state a disclaimer...That I certainly believe in, and advocate, the basic equal and human-rights, and treatments, of all peoples...regardless of their own personal philosophies.
Mr. D'Souza's article brought to my recollection an event that took place about 15 years ago, during an open discussion in a Sociology class at the University of Wisconsin. The slated discussion was this very topic of "homosexuality and the "Nature vs Nurture" argument". The popular "Nature" agenda was obviously very one sided, as I was the only one in the class who openly questioned it. I simply asked if Homosexuality were so normal, and only a biological trait, why aren't most animals in the wild more proportionately "gay"??? I was a newer transfer student at the time, and was absolutely stunned by the overwhelmingly negative responses, and the many jeers, invoked by my simple-honest question. The most vocal among them began a discourse on my lack of expertise on the specific, "gay" behaviors of many barnyard animals. But I was clearly not referring to oppressed and "domesticated" creatures placed in zoos, aquariums, barnyards, and etc...My question referred to animals completely "in the wild". Most(though perhaps not all)animals who display such homosexual tendencies are overwhelmingly-NOT-living in, or been raised in a completely "natural" habitat-without boundaries or unaffected in some way by "un-natural" outside influences. Studies of animal behaviors of confined, domesticated, or somehow effected creatures, are very differant from behaviors of animals in their completely natural state.
Anyway, my point is that you will no doubt come under heavy fire, & scrutiny, for the many good...although "politically-unpopular" points that you've raised...of which I happen to agree.
Personally, I would be very interested in any research into when and why these societal changes came about. Specifically what precursers took place that led to those trends toward homosexuality in the first place, and what factors greatly contributed towards their later decline.
For now, until "proven" otherwise, I believe that most homosexuals who are not born with some abnormal birth defect (there are some rare defects of genitalia, etc.)have become, for the most part, homosexual due to their environment; ie; psychological, family, & societal influences, and possible external biological factors (chemicals, pollutants, medicines, etc...)that could adversely effect a developing fetus or individual.
And for the record, you are not spreading hate for printing a piece of fact or "truth" in a completely non-threatening way. You certainly have a right, and an obligation, to publish a fact, and opinion, as much as anyone. And by the way, an opinion of which I personally respect.
drmyers at 2:13PM on Jun 28th 2007
99. Dinesh, I believe is an Indian name, as in the country of India. I don't believe gayness is an inherited trait. I believe that poor Steven from Alabama has so many gays in his family because of the behaviors in his relatives. If you grew up watching all your relatives eating with their fingers instead of silverware, unfortunately, you will think that eating with your hands is a normal thing to do. If all your relatives sat on the couch after dining, sat down with a beer, put one hand down their pants and watched TV, belching, you may be inclined to do the same thing. Bad habits are learned by example, not by being inherited by genetics. It saddens me to see someone who is violating Gods instructions and guidelines, (found in the Bible), "put down" Christians, and God, for that matter, just because they are immoral. Just maybe, a Christian who is vocalizing on the subject, might just be trying to save your eternal soul. Do you believe in God? I mean, did your "gay relatives" teach you about what God expects from us? Do you remember how God destroyed Soddom and Gommorah because they had these immoral practices? Not one person in those two towns were moral and good people. This is directly from the Bible. Satan is Jehovahs main advesary, and he will tempt us at every turn. Parents have the obligation to teach the Bible to their children, and to teach them from right from wrong. If a little boy is allowed to put on his moms high heels and lipstick, and is told "how cute and beautiful he looks", don't you think that this would be enough of a boost to his little self esteem, that he will grow up thinking feeling better about himself when he wears female attire and wears lipstick? Just as some families who drink beer day and night, will most likeley have offspring who start doing the same thing. Wake up America!!!! This is weaking our country. Your children are watching you and are taking notes. Be aware of what you do in front of your children because they learn from example. There are alot of closet gays in Hollywood, therefore, we are being bombarded with shows, and movies that depict gayness. Why would I want my children to think this is normal behavior? I don't want my children watching those things because I don't want them to think that this is the way that we are supposed to live. Why are we having all this homosexuality crammed down our throats??? This is becoming the norm, it seems...sorry, Rosie, sorry Ellen....get some psychological help! Some people who have bad experiences with the opposite sex may steer their children away from the opposite sex as a way of trying to protect them, instead of getting the psychological help they need to deal with their problems. Homosexuality is not genetic. No one has ever found a gene for homosexuality, and the homosexuals brains studied are the same as a heterosexuals brain. Gayness is learned behavior, and until you realize that, the chain will not be broken. Read the Bible! Wise-up! Be strong! Don't tell your little children to go up and kiss-hello a same sex child. Remember Soddom and Gommorah! I am not going to change my views just because some "gay person" says I am gay-bashing, or closed-minded. I don't care if people knock me for being for what is correct behavior. Remember, the road to the Kingdom is a narrow one, and I intend to do my best not to falter. It is easy to make the wrong choices in life...there are so many doing wrong, that doing what is right is made to seem wrong. So, Steven, God made male and female in every species, because we were designed to be paired up that way. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The reason you are gay, is because thats what you grew up with. The;y try to tell you its genetic because it gives them a "valid" excuse for their immorallity. To them, it justifies their way of life. Just a cop-out. It was OKAY in YOUR family. Take some time out, and assess it. Sometimes there is alchohol and/or drugs involved as well. These will impede you from making proper judgements. The label on all mind-numbing drugs state: do not attempt to make important decisions, as the drug will impede your judgement. Do not operate machinery, and do not drive as your judgement will be impeded. So much drug and alchohol use....so many one parent families.....so many latch-key children, coming home from school, with no adult supervision....hence.....so many immoral things going around, gayness, being only one of them.
janet at 11:39PM on Jul 11th 2007
100. I love the hate spewed by the fundy christians here. It shows just how much faith will destroy the mind. It demonstrates to all that, rather than being a religion of love and tolerance, christianity is a religion of hatred and bigotry.
Knight_of_BAAWA at 2:12PM on Jun 28th 2007
101. From the wikipedia article about homosexuality:
The American Psychological Association (APA) states that homosexuality "is not changeable."[97] More generally, the APA states, "psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed,"[97] and in 2001 United States Surgeon General David Satcher issued a report maintaining that "there is no valid scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed."[98]
Joe Bob at 2:13PM on Jun 28th 2007
102. I do agree that some obviously homosexual men do have fabulous interior decorating sense though.
Risa Avari at 2:21PM on Jun 28th 2007
103. As the mother of a "fake Lesbian" daughter, I can tell you that there is at least one "non-genetic" gay person, since she "boldly" told us when she came "out" that she was "choosing" her new Lesbian lifestyle.
Her -- very sympathetic to gay causes -- straight sister also jokingingly calls this Lesbian by choice her "fake Lesbian sister," because she also knows just how truly "genetic" her sister's homosexual behavior is.
This daughter has always embraced anything that seems dramatic or edgy.
I'm not saying that I believe that every person who lives a homosexual lifestyle has "chosen" it, but this daughter definitely has, so I'm assuming that out of all the beings in the cosmos, she is not alone in making homosexuality a "choice."
Mom at 2:19PM on Jun 28th 2007
104. You have made one critical error. You have equated genetic homosexuality with a cultural practice which was akin to pederasty. The Greek practice of a younger male with an older male is a form of training and education not unlike some cultures where a male family member "deflowers" the female. This training tradition is not as strong in the Romans, although there are numerous well known male-male relationships such as that of the Emperor Hadrian. The source of homosexuality cannot be justified simply by the mythology or we would also be dealing with women mating with bulls or turning into trees. Homosexuality is not a voluntary practice, it is genetic. In my family there are are actually numerous gay members, all within the maternal side, and none on the paternal side. Surely you aware that secondary features like eye color and hair color are genetic. Additionally, left-handedness which had long been seen as a changeable trait is also genetic. Like homosexuality, the problem with left-handedness was that it was considered a sign of the devil; a behavioral quality condemned because of judeo-christian tradition, without any scientific evidence to substantiate it as a mark of a socially destructive personality. The problem is not homosexuality, but insitutionalized relilgion-based fear and ignorance.
Richard Adkins at 2:51PM on Jun 28th 2007
105. I just found out my Grandaughter is gay , my heart feels heavy, because of how we think one way, and feel another most of our life . I'll always love her and be there for her. Muriel
MURIEL at 2:19PM on Jun 28th 2007