As usual Dinesh D'Souza is wrong. He sees the examples of the ancient Greeks and Romans practicing bisexuality as definitive proof that homosexuality is not innate. His theory is that since current Greeks and Romans don't practice rampant bisexuality (let's assume that's true for the moment being) and the ancient Greeks and Romans did, it must be a cultural thing. Not a genetic one.
What's funny about the Christian right argument is that they admit that they are powerless to stop feelings of homosexuality taking over if society opens up to it. What's going through their minds? Perhaps they're not so different from the ancient Greeks after all.
Of course, as Kinsey showed, the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality is not a sharp divide (I used to take credit for this idea until I realized Professor Kinsey had written about this before I was even born). It's not a black or white, gay or straight issue. Everyone is somewhere along the gay-straight spectrum.
And the further society opens up to homosexuality as permissible, the more people feel comfortable coming out as bisexual, homosexual, omnisexual or whateversexual.
Let me give a quick and absurdly simplistic example. Let's assume 100 is completely gay and 0 is completely straight on our gay-straight continuum. A person who ranks a 95 on the gay scale is probably going to act out on those innate desires no matter what societal rules there are, even at the risk of being put to death in closed societies.
A person who is a 5 on that scale might never act on any trace bisexual desires he or she might have no matter what the societal norms are. But the more open a society is, the more you will start to draw in people who score an 85, 75, 65, 55, 45, 35, etc. on our fun little gay-straight line.
In a very closed society some one who is "80% gay" might never come out and in a very open society someone who is even "20% gay" might try it. These are gross simplifications, but you get the point. In fact, this is in some ways exactly what the culture warriors on the right have been warning about.
The Christian right (and the religious and cultural conservatives of a great many societies) have been worried about this for a long time. They are right. As society opens up, we will likely be more "gay." Or in reality, be closer to our true nature, wherever that might lie on the bisexuality continuum.
Where the cultural right is wrong is when they make a value judgment on that. Of course, there isn't anything wrong with that all. In fact, since it allows us to be closer to our "real" nature without societal judgments on our natural sexual preferences, there is something very right about it.
As it stands, our current culture doesn't yet appear to be fully comfortable with a truly and widely bisexual society. So, we inch toward progress or slouch toward
Though it must be noted that we have already achieved a great deal of openness on the female side of the equation. Ask around and see if you can find a woman under 25 who hasn't made out with one of their girlfriends.
My informal study on our show indicates about 80% of girls under 25 have at least tried a sexual experience with another woman (I concede that I am no Alfred Kinsey and my so-called evidence is wildly anecdotal, but ask for yourself and you'll see my numbers are shockingly accurate).
D'Souza uses history as his guide. It's ironic because his argument is ultimately against the tide of history and the inevitability of our genes. We know what the future holds, it is our past. The American people are right, our sexuality is innate. We just have to have the courage to own up to it.
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Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 37)
31. The comments comparing pedophilia to homosexuality are absurd for one simple reason: adult men abuse girls and boys in approximately equal numbers. So, by the argument, being heterosexual also makes one prone to molesting children. Absurd! Pedophilia has little to do with sexual orientation and more to do with manipulation, criminality, gratificaiton, laziness, and poor social skills. Dr. T
Tara at 6:52PM on Jun 28th 2007
32. If everyone was gay the world wouldnt end.Gay people have been artificially in seminated. That was not a good argument
.
Bull at 6:56PM on Jun 28th 2007
33. Since both Uygur and D'souza mentioned the Greeks & Romans, this seems like a good time for a couple of jokes. I heard these two awhile ago, and they seem a good fit for this part of the blog.
Q1: How do they separate the men from the boys in Greece?
A1: With a crow-bar!
Q2: If Germany was attacking Italy from the rear, do you think Greece would help?
¡¡LOLOL!!
Ken Berg at 6:58PM on Jun 28th 2007
34. Leilani, let's not worship nurture, either. There is definitely a genetic component to sexual preference, though it doesn't account for everything.
From the wikipedia article about homosexuality:
"Twin studies give indications that male homosexuality is genetically mediated. One common type of twin study compares the monozygotic (or identical) twins of people possessing a particular trait to the dizygotic (non-identical, or fraternal) twins of people possessing the trait. Bailey and Pillard (1991) in a study of gay twins found that 52% of monozygotic brothers and 22% of the dizygotic twins were concordant for homosexuality."
So it would seem that both genetics and environment are working here. In any case, it appears that sexual preference is determined very early; if not at conception, or in the womb, before the age of 3 or 4. Almost everyone feels that they have always had the preference they have.
I think the point of C.U.'s post is that it is not a conscious decision.
Joe Bob at 6:58PM on Jun 28th 2007
35. You guys are soooo gay. If only Germany would have left Russia to their own devices, perhaps we could have a real genetic experiment to see if gay genes are in us all. Just kill all gays and see if they pop there fat little heads up anywhere.
mat at 8:44PM on Jun 28th 2007
36. Thank you for an intelligent and well-thought analysis. Its good to read an article written by someone with common sense for a change.
John at 7:05PM on Jun 28th 2007
37. Okay. Okay. Foolish peoples? Educate yourself, please. Do not equate pedophilia and beastiality (Honestly, if you have sex with animals, I don't care. As long as you don't do it in front of me) with homosexuality. Most gay people like people around their age or older. In all actuality, most pedophiles are HETEROSEXUAL. Oh, and don't confuse pedophilia with child molestation. All pedophiles don't molest children.
People are just gay, straight, and bi. No one chooses their sexual orientation. Try. I dare you. No matter how hard you try, you can't make yourself attracted to the same sex unless you are already attracted to the same sex.
Finally, the world isn't going to suddenly turn gay, so you don't have to worry about the population "dying out" (Um, who CARES anyway?). There will always be more straight people than gay people. Gays and bis will always be here. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. Accept it and move on with life.
Finally, for everyone saying that people are supposed to be straight and have children and that men and women perfectly "fit" together, please explain intersexed people (The "fit" thing goes straight out the door), men and women who can't have children, and men and women who don't want children (Me, for example). Thanks.
Educate yourself about homosexuality before sprouting your nonsense. I'm a straight woman and I find it completely idiotic that people would say such nonsense in the year 2007. As GLBT people say, "We're here and we're queer." Get used to it.
QA99 at 7:24PM on Jun 28th 2007
38. "The Bible says homosexuality is wrong." So ****ing what? It also says we have to perform animal sacrifices to God and that there's nothing wrong with raping a woman as long as the man pays off her father afterwards. The Old Testament is full of arbitrary rules that don't make sense and were only established so that the Hebrew people could demonstrate to God that they were willing to do whatever he said, just because he said to do it.
Homosexuality (unlike pedophilia and bestiality, which are not consensual and therefore victimize both the little kids and the animals) is something that is only "wrong" because we THINK it is. If you stopped believing in the wrongness (or "sinfulness") of homosexuality, all of the negative consequences of it would vanish. It's not like people would stop having heterosexual relationships, so we wouldn't "die out" if homosexuality became accepted, as some people seem to imply. And I really doubt that any sane, unprejudiced historian would tell you that increased acceptance of homo/bisexuality causes or even correlates significantly with the downfall of societies.
M. Valentine at 7:11PM on Jun 28th 2007
39. here is an idiotic remark "until condoms homosexuality was incredibly dangerous". This shows your are uneducated. It had nothing to do with homosexuality, it was the fact that many intravenous drug users were homosexuals and often shared needles. If every single heterosexual was doing that, then being heterosexual would be dangerous. And by the way, both carry the same risk, diseases do not recognize sexual orientation.
homosexuality is not a choice, it is innate. Homosexuality has been studied in animals as well, which leads scientists to believe that it is a hard wired condition. Research into the human hypothalamus has shown that strait men and gay women have a similiar hypothalamus structure and both illicit the same response to stimuli, and the same goes for gay men and strait women. The hypothalamus is the portion of your brain that controls your sexual drive and desires.
get educated, stop being stupid
nood at 7:20PM on Jun 28th 2007
40. I would like to clear up a couple things, if I may:
First, regarding Christ, Paul and the Bible:
1. Christ condemned no one; he only hinted at condemnation for the false religious leaders who were misleading, fleecing and burdening the lay people
2. While he did not condemn any PERSON, he did make clear what things were "unclean", including "adulteries, fornication, murder...", etc., and said that these were things that "came OUT of a person," indicating that they were inherent IN "us." He told us what such things were for two (2) reasons:
a. So that if we COULD, we would control it (why? because we're supposed to be or at least strive to be of a HIGHER "nature" than mere animals - notice, I said "mere" animals, meaning domestic and wild beasts, not human animals); OR
b. If we COULDN'T, we would know of what benefit HE could be to us (i.e., his blood, the pouring out of which is for the FORGIVENESS of sins!).
He did not expect us to be perfect; none of us are. That is why he gave his life... because we AREN'T perfect. So what? What is that sin... is sin. "Murder" bears the same weight as "bearing false witness against a brother," as "coveting your neighbors whatever," as committing "adultery." In some form or another, we are, ALL OF US... sinners.
The problem occurs when we attempt to "rank" sin.
We then get into pointing the finger... which is HYPOCRISY... which is one of the two sins that Christ warned us against (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the other).
The second thing I need to clear up is that in Leviticus, the detestableness of homosexuality was mentioned right after the uncleanliness of menstruation. My point? We are... all of us... UNCLEAN in some manner.
And THAT was the Christ's point: you are unclean, whoever you are, in some way or fashion. BUT... being unclean does not mean being condemned. AND... if you are clean ON THE INSIDE (meaning, there is no deceit, hate or hypocrisy IN you), such cleanliness can put you in line to have his blood COVER your uncleanliness ON THE OUTSIDE.
That is why touching lepers did not render him condemned (same condemnation under the Old Testament), or being touched by a woman who had an unchecked menstrual period for 12 years... or touching a dead body... didn't render him unclean under the Old Testament, but instead, rendered those who touched HIM... clean.
Bottom line: stop judgding that you may not BE judged. Worry about yourself and your own uncleanliness, whatever it may be. Forgive... and you will be forgive for YOUR errors. Be merciful and you will be shown mercy. Do unto others AS you would have them do unto YOU... which is to have pity and COMPASSION for you... and OVERLOOK YOUR flaws.
LOVE... covers a MULTITUDE of transgressions... and there is no "law" against it.
So, while I may not practice homosexuality, it is NOT for me to judge someone who does. My DEBT to such person is to LOVE them, and by doing so, along with faith in the atoning value of the blood of Christ... MY sins can be "covered."
Wake up and "get it" folks!
Peace to you!
ShelbyJ at 7:26PM on Jun 28th 2007
41. Everyone confused about homosexuality and it's origins, here's the story: Homosexuality, like most everything, is currently assumed to be a combination of GENETICS and environment. So, no, homosexuality is not JUST an environment thing. And for the person who said, "Why would a gene like that not be wiped out if it doesn't help to continue our race?" Think about people who were born with missing/damaged body parts? (Obviously, genes that should have been wiped out) What about people who were born without the ability to have children? Intersexed people? Our bodies are obviously not perfect nor will they ever be. They just...are. We obviously weren't born just to continue our species or there wouldn't be people born like the ones I described above.
Oh yes. As I was saying, homosexuality has to do with genetics and environment. The environment thing is tricky because no one knows HOW that affects sexuality. There are gay people who have come from all types of environments, many the same as the environments of straight people. Being gay is DEFINITELY not something you choose. People are just gay and they feel that they've always been that way. I don't think there is a way we can stop people from being gay. We will always have gay people. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
QA99 at 7:25PM on Jun 28th 2007
42. Why do we refer to it as "sexual preference"? I am gay, and I remember having a crush on a TV doctor at about 5 years of age. I had no idea what sex was until at least a decade later. So, I am attracted to men, but it's not all about sex.
Greg at 7:25PM on Jun 28th 2007
43. Actually, its not right.. a guy licking a guys ass, a girl licking a girls ass.
Thats sick stuff!
I agree, beastiality, and screwing young kids aren't far behind.
Actually it hear now, Everyday all you hear of is a young female teacher molesting a young 12 year old boy.
Tom at 7:27PM on Jun 28th 2007
44. All of you are stupid for spending so much time badmouthing each other. If society spent half as much time worrying about more important issues then we'd have a better world to live in. When the time comes for every individual to be judged it wont be based on who you loved, it'll be based on how you treated those that you did love and what you did to make the world a better place.
steve at 10:35PM on Jun 28th 2007
45. Hey Narth----why would anyone choose a life of ridicule, hiding, and family rejection? Also lets not forget the rejection from the gay community. If your not a hunk in this life you watch alot of life time. It is not an easy life by any stretch of imagination.
If you're lucky to have a long time partner and he or she dies you are alone. As any "straight" widow or widower that didn't have children how lonely that is. I'm gay and there were many many times that I wish that I wasn't. I'm 50 and have had the feelings I have since i was about 5. I didn't know what they were and certainly din't pick them at that age.
Ray at 7:32PM on Jun 28th 2007