As usual Dinesh D'Souza is wrong. He sees the examples of the ancient Greeks and Romans practicing bisexuality as definitive proof that homosexuality is not innate. His theory is that since current Greeks and Romans don't practice rampant bisexuality (let's assume that's true for the moment being) and the ancient Greeks and Romans did, it must be a cultural thing. Not a genetic one.
What's funny about the Christian right argument is that they admit that they are powerless to stop feelings of homosexuality taking over if society opens up to it. What's going through their minds? Perhaps they're not so different from the ancient Greeks after all.
Of course, as Kinsey showed, the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality is not a sharp divide (I used to take credit for this idea until I realized Professor Kinsey had written about this before I was even born). It's not a black or white, gay or straight issue. Everyone is somewhere along the gay-straight spectrum.
And the further society opens up to homosexuality as permissible, the more people feel comfortable coming out as bisexual, homosexual, omnisexual or whateversexual.
Let me give a quick and absurdly simplistic example. Let's assume 100 is completely gay and 0 is completely straight on our gay-straight continuum. A person who ranks a 95 on the gay scale is probably going to act out on those innate desires no matter what societal rules there are, even at the risk of being put to death in closed societies.
A person who is a 5 on that scale might never act on any trace bisexual desires he or she might have no matter what the societal norms are. But the more open a society is, the more you will start to draw in people who score an 85, 75, 65, 55, 45, 35, etc. on our fun little gay-straight line.
In a very closed society some one who is "80% gay" might never come out and in a very open society someone who is even "20% gay" might try it. These are gross simplifications, but you get the point. In fact, this is in some ways exactly what the culture warriors on the right have been warning about.
The Christian right (and the religious and cultural conservatives of a great many societies) have been worried about this for a long time. They are right. As society opens up, we will likely be more "gay." Or in reality, be closer to our true nature, wherever that might lie on the bisexuality continuum.
Where the cultural right is wrong is when they make a value judgment on that. Of course, there isn't anything wrong with that all. In fact, since it allows us to be closer to our "real" nature without societal judgments on our natural sexual preferences, there is something very right about it.
As it stands, our current culture doesn't yet appear to be fully comfortable with a truly and widely bisexual society. So, we inch toward progress or slouch toward
Though it must be noted that we have already achieved a great deal of openness on the female side of the equation. Ask around and see if you can find a woman under 25 who hasn't made out with one of their girlfriends.
My informal study on our show indicates about 80% of girls under 25 have at least tried a sexual experience with another woman (I concede that I am no Alfred Kinsey and my so-called evidence is wildly anecdotal, but ask for yourself and you'll see my numbers are shockingly accurate).
D'Souza uses history as his guide. It's ironic because his argument is ultimately against the tide of history and the inevitability of our genes. We know what the future holds, it is our past. The American people are right, our sexuality is innate. We just have to have the courage to own up to it.
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Reader Comments ( Page 36 of 37)
526. Dear Carolyn – Peace to you!
I went back to the first responses to this article and found all of your notes, including the one where you addressed the verse on "inspired" in 2Timothy. Please forgive my lack of knowledge of your previous comments; I am new to this blogging thing and did not realize there were 32 previous pages of comments to this article.
I totally understand. In response to your comments, though, I have a lot to say here, so I hope you will be patient, bear with me… and read through.
That being said, I found it curious that as you warned against judgment and condemnation, you had no qualms against hurling a number of assumptions my way. "Led by blind guides...have not received the Holy Spirit...hatred and hypocrisy".
The fact that you referred me to 2 Timothy 3:16 belies that I assumed anything. You used that verse to bolster your belief that everything in the Bible is scripture. It is you who made a wrong assumption: everything in the Bible is not scripture. You believe that, though, because you were taught that… by others who also think that everything in the Bible is scripture. They believe this, however, because the truth has not been revealed to them; they do NOT “see.” Yet, they say they do and that since they do, they can lead you. Blind. Guides. Blind… because they have NOT received the holy spirit. To help YOU “see” the truth of this, I humbly refer you to Revelation 3:17,18.
In my initial comment (452) I (unknowingly) said some of the same things you had already commented on - although admittedly I was nowhere near as eloquent as you.
Please bear with me, but you mistake “my” eloquence with that of the Holy Spirit. Although I would LOVE to say that these things are mine, that what was presented came from me, it would be a lie. It came from the True Source, and that is the only reason it reads as it does. I am no better than you or anyone else here. In any manner. Indeed, it is because I AM a “lesser” one… a “foremost” sinner… that I was called. That’s really how it works. He called me, I answered. He promised to cover over MY sin and error. For nothing. No price. Simply because he WANTED to. Free. Merciful.
I have nothing to give in return; there is nothing that I possess or am that is of value. BUT… I love him SO much for doing what he did for ME… for “covering over” and “blotting out” my sin(s)… that I OFFERED myself and said, “Here I am, send me, use me… tell me what to say and I’ll say it, just as I hear you say it to me.”
It is Holy Spirit that you hear, then, Carolyn, and not “eloquence.” Truly.
I have to say I agree with much of what you say and you have a gift for the written word.
My “gift” is not for the written word. It is the “free gift” of holy spirit, “life’s water,” which I received free… and take freely. Because of this, I give it free. But it is not mine (i.e., of me); it was given me. The glory, then, should be given to the one who dispensed it. I cannot take credit for I would be deceiving you and letting you think that I am/have something that I am/do not.
However, receiving the Holy Spirit does not make someone omniscient,
Indeed!! It does not.
or you would have known that I have most fervently and with all my heart and humility, repented of my sins and asked Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior, proclaiming Him to be God appearing in the flesh, crucified, dead and buried, risen again and sitting at the right hand of God the Father.
You and a whole heck of a lot of other people… but that does not necessarily translate into having received holy spirit… and your current stance on the Bible, scripture, etc., indicates that although you may indeed WANT such Spirit to dwell in you, that might not have yet taken place. But that does not mean it can’t or won’t! Indeed, I implore you: KEEP ASKING, KEEP SEEKING, KEEP KNOCKING… for if you do, it WILL be opened to you.
The Holy Spirit is in me and and although I may love you as my brother/sister, I shall not agree with your view on the Bible.
IF (and I use that word quite lovingly…) the Holy Spirit were TRULY in you… YOU would “not need ANYONE to be teaching you ANYTHING”… because “THAT One will teach you ALL things.” Indeed, your Bible TELLS you that very thing! It TELLS you to seek such abiding!
Thus, IF the Holy Spirit dwelled in you… HE would lead you into ALL things. HE would do for you what He did for those joined to him BEFORE there was a Bible… even BEFORE “scripture” was put down in writing. Joseph didn’t have the Law written on stone tablets; yet, he knew that to sleep with Potiphar’s wife would be “a sin against God.” How did he know this? Because… he had the Law written in the RIGHT place… the place where God said He would write it for His TRUE people… on tablets of flesh… the HEART.
Thus, IF the Holy Spirit TRULY dwelled in you, the Law of the Christ, which is LOVE… would be written on your heart and NOTHING written in delible ink would be necessary or could invalidate it, not even the “laws” handed down under Moses. You would be BOUND by it and bound TO its mediator, Christ (versus someone like Paul, who INITIALLY judged and taught judging).
Thus, you could be on an isolated island, never having seen a book of any type at all, and yet, the Master could appear to you… grant you His Holy Spirit… and by such means you can be taught.
Your position, however, is like that of many others, which is that unless one possesses and reads a Bible, one cannot know God or Christ. I fervently and vehemently disagee with you. And that fact that you might say, “Lord, Lord…” doesn’t mean he knows you… or you him.
The BIBLE… says “You will know the TRUTH… and the TRUTH will set you free.” I ask you: what is that TRUTH? Like most, you appear to believe that “it is the information contained in God’s Word, the Holy Bible.” That is a LIE and the Bible itself tells you. How so? Let’s take a look:
Romans 8:32 – “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free…”
John 14:6 – “I… am the… Truth.”
Romans 8:36 – “Therefore, if the SON sets you free, you are TRULY free.”
So, I ask you again… what… or rather, WHO… is the TRUTH that set YOU free?
I am a little puzzled by the fact that you use Luke, which you claim is not "inspired" to point to scripture which you claim is "inspired".
Whether a recorded statement is true or accurate has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether it is SCRIPTURE. This is the mistake that most make! I can say to you today, that on, say, September 11, 2001, a plane crashed into the WTC. This is TRUE. Is it SCRIPTURE? No, it is not. In Luke’s account of my Lord, he recorded what OTHERS told him my Lord said. Was it TRUE what such others told him? Yes. Was it SCRIPTURE? No. He was NOT “inspired”… because he was NOT in spirit when he received the information. He was NOT “inspired” because he didn’t receive the information from God. He was NOT “inspired” because he was not commissioned BY God OR told BY God to write. He was commissioned by the Roman official Theophilus, who wanted to know what all the fuss between the Jews and some knew folks called “Christians” was all about.
So, I totally understand your confusion, and I know where it comes from: those who have erroneously taught you… in place of the Holy Spirit.
Wouldn't that, in a sense, make Luke "beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight"?!?
“In a sense,” yes. But like many, many others, you are misconstruing what Paul said and meant, and it starts with that “in a sense” thing. SO many religious leaders do that (i.e., “Well, it doesn’t actually say/mean that, but IN A SENSE…”) and THAT is how God’s sheep are MISLED (“many false christs and false prophets come into the world, to mislead, if possible, EVEN THE CHOSEN ONES.”)
Paul said, “All SCRIPTURE… is beneficial…” which is TRUE: all SCRIPTURE… IS beneficial, etc.” He did NOT say, however, that everything that is “beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight… IS SCRIPTURE.” Do you SEE?
I TRULY hope so. I also truly hope you hear… and get the SENSE of it… dear Carolyn. You have nothing to do but ask, though, for holy spirit. For God does not withhold it from anyone ASKING for it. Luke 11:13
I bid you the GREATEST of love and peace.
ShelbJ
ShelbyJ at 3:36PM on Jul 3rd 2007
527. Dont know if I agree but everyone, reguardless of their race, religion or sexual preference has rights.
http://www.ptlia.com
pc at 11:05PM on Jul 3rd 2007
528. Hi Pixiegrl of #307,
I read that verse in a couple versions. I did not know that the NIV had the word homosexual there. You say you could use some light. Here let me move this here floor lamp over for ya. Now. There, we will not go blind for reading without enough light. You say that one is born feeling one way or the other. Weather gay or straight. I believe that everyone the world over is born with the potential to be gay or straight. Circumstances dictate how they will turn out. You mentioned the word nurture. Then there is the word nature as others have said. Perfect. Sin nature. Tis what the Bible says. I have been blessed with a good relationship with my dad. The closeness of this daddy's girl helps me be more gung ho about the whole marriage to a man thing. So, yes nurture plays into it. Of course I am not the only one out there. I have had gay thoughts though. It bothered me. Friendship with a girl is great but taking it past the bonds of normality causes problems. As I got older and started thinking for myself more, I still find no reason to be gay. You know, if it was really a good thing wouldnt there be some sort of really good reason? I admit I am afraid of hell. If gay is bad and the benefits could be outmatched by straightness, why take the risk? Like another poster here said, we all have sin in us until the judjment and then, if we tried to do good and avoided all the bad things we knew were bad, (may I add and believed in Jesus)God will repair us.
Yes, I know "bed hopping" is not just a gay thing. According to the Bible (and I know you may not believe this but just because you do not believe something does not mean it is not true) its a sin thing. But yes, it is their own business. (to a degree)
Amen, we all do things we should be condemned for. But, as DCT says repentance is the cure. And there are NO HIGHER ISSUES in life than morality. Because whatever your morality might be dictates how you do everything you do. NO ONE escapes dealing with issues of standards every moment of every day whether they realize it or not. Like spelling words right on this blog. I probably missed a few myself. But I do not think that is a big deal usually with a blog, but if I were writing to the queen of Brittain, that would be different.
Michelle at 11:20PM on Jul 3rd 2007
529. Hello Michelle from #524. thanks for dragging the floor light over :>) It is good to hear your opinion too! I was raised in a very conservative Christian home. And if I'm interpreting your response correctly, you're right that we can't just pick and choose things from the Bible and apply them according to convenience. I had to learn in my 20's what it really meant to be a Christian. I don't defend the act of homosexuality, but I choose to love them as people and try not to see them as homosexual. I'm just as big a sinner as anyone else :>) I too struggled with feelings toward girls, maybe b'c I had an emotionally absent father/overbearing mother, but maybe just b/c it was "naughty" and I just wanted to be rebellious! Most likely it was b/c I was emotionally miserable with myself and just searching for my identity and someone to love me. Today in my 30's I can say I'm happily married...oh but I've gone off and written a thesis! Point being-thanks for considering my thoughts, and THANKS for sharing yours! pgrl
pixiegrl at 12:58AM on Jul 4th 2007
530. I read these posts and laugh at a few things.
1) If you are not gay, how can you say people aren't hard wired to be gay? If you don't know from experience, shut the hell up! I am bisexual, have had men and women partners. I am attracted to more women than men, but my attraction to the men I find attractive is much stronger. Also, I really don't emotionally bond with women. They are too needy and talk to much for my tastes...not that women are bad...it is just not my taste. I was not born gay or bisexual, I think it is related to my absentee father...but I can't say that noone is born that way.
2) Everyone acts like they are biblical scolars. The Bible quoters are mostly agreeing, but can you agree on everything else in the Bible? Is the Old Testament literal? Is it all inspired? Which day, Saturday or Sunday is the proper day of worship?, What is hell like, etc...everyone has their viewpoint based on their past life experiences, their own research, and things they were taught by others. Fact is people...everyone sins...yep, we are all sinners...is my bisexuality worse than your adultery, lust, gossiping, backbiting, praying to Mary (for you Catholics) or greed? Certainly not. I sin, you sin, lets get over it! To quote the Bible, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone". If you think you are doing your Christian duty by soul saving fags on here, you need to move on.
aolblogger29306 at 4:34AM on Jul 4th 2007
531. As usual science doesn't ever seem to enter into these culture war cronicles. For those educated in science, not biblocal belief, in statistics there is a thing called a normative distribution or "bell curve". All nuturally occuring things can be plotted against it. For instance for males that could be penis length, for females that could be bust size. 68% of all samples will fall just a little right or left of the middle, all the rest will fall in increasingly smaller numbers farther out until only a very few are at the far far edges. Particularly in light of recent supportive research, so can sexual proclivity. End of story, nothing more needs to be observed! Fact is fact ... not belief!
Johnny at 2:57AM on Jul 5th 2007
532. Dear ShelbyJ,
You speak a lot of scripture when you write. May I ask your personal belief, what you would speak, on our Savior? Do you speak Jesus the Christ as the son of God, born of a virgin, conceived of the Holy Spirit, walked the earth in the flesh, crucified, dead and buried, resurrected by God and that receiving Jesus into our heart as our personal savior, having repented of our sins, is the only way to Heaven?
Please know that I am truly seek your answer and am not implying anything with the question.
Thanks and peace to you.
Carolyn
Carolyn at 12:39PM on Jul 4th 2007
533. Carolyn and others,
I am bisexual, I believe in God, that Jesus died for our sins, and that if we repent of our sins and believe Christ's sacrifice was full atonement for our sins, we will have eternal life. I confess my sexual sins. But you know what? I am only human. Anyone who critisizes my failure to resist my human urges had better be without sin as well. If you say you repent and accept Christ, it makes it seem like you don't ever sin again. Which we all know is CRAP! God sees the heart of the person. How many times do you let your kids fail before you stop loving them?
aolblogger29306 at 7:21PM on Jul 4th 2007
534. Dear Comment #72,
I don't think so. As long as there are eggs and sperm, we homosexuals will continue to procreate. Chances are, we will creat a more peaceful, better educated race of humans. Not to mention, there will be far less unwanted pregnancies and children in foster homes, since we heathen homosexuals carefully decide when to procreate and many of us adopt the children who came into this world without caring parents.
I will say no more, because aside fromt the few bright folks who bothered to comment, the majority will continue to poison the earth until they recede back into it.
Christiane at 9:21PM on Jul 4th 2007
535. Dear aolblogger,
I'm not sure what you read in my post that led you to believe I was saying that accepting Christ means you don't sin again - quite the contrary. In fact, you know, that was my only disappointment when I accepted Christ - it was such an amazing, pivotal moment in my life and I mistakenly believed that from that moment on life would be great and I would be a good person - HA! That was 11 years ago and I can tell you my brother or sister, whichever you may be, that I have been to the altar many, many times since then, on my knees, asking forgiveness. As Paul says, "That which I do not want to do, I do, and that which I want to do I do not do." You will not find me sitting in judgment of anyone who can't resist their "urges". Although I have to admit, if someone hurt my children I would have a hard time restraining myself. But that's the flesh responding.
As to how many times would I forgive my children? As many times as it takes. Having children gives me a clearer vision of how God sees us and how we can break his heart by choosing to do things our own way. I confess I have done my share of breaking God's heart and will probably continue to do so until the day I die. Trying to live for Him instead of myself can be a daily battle of the flesh, but one worth fighting.
Peace to you,
Carolyn
Carolyn at 10:05PM on Jul 4th 2007
536. Exactly Carolyn. So far, the majority of Bible thumpers have said homosexuality is a sin, and we should accept Jesus into our lives and repent. Great...then what? Never sin again? Yeah right. So lets just say that I stopped having sex with men...what happens to my urges and lustful desires...yep, still there...still sinning.
aolblogger29306 at 10:48PM on Jul 4th 2007
537. Dear aolblogger,
I will pray for you brother, please pray for me too.
Your sister in Christ,
Carolyn
Carolyn at 11:24PM on Jul 4th 2007
538. i'm so pleased to read Cenk's lucid thoughts. As a young, hetro child in the South, I wondered why so many otherwise normal acting people vowed all the 'queers were going to hell!!' and so often seemed to want to hasten the journey. That was a long time ago, yet now as "we inch toward progress or slouch toward Bethlehem," there is still a mob brandishing swords ready to smite the sinners down. And yes, as usual, D'Souza's got it all wrong.
ruth at 10:04AM on Jul 5th 2007
539. ON WOMEN TURNING TO GAY/BI LIFE STYLE,IN THE END TIMES YOUR WOMEN AND YOUR MEN WILL DEPART FROM THE NATURAL FOR THE UNNATURAL,EVEN THOU THIS HAS BEEN THUR OUT HISTORY,IT APPEAR'S THAT GOD HAS A CUTTING POINT,SINCE NO CIVILIZATION HAS SURVIVED OR ADVANCED,WERE ARE THEY NOW!ALSO IF IT'S SO RIGHT ,WHY CAN'T A MAN LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN AND MAKE A BABY OR A WOMAN AND A WOMAN FOR THAT MATTER' that's because it's outside of the plan' GOD OR NATURE IT DOES NOT ADD UP 1+1=2 NOT 3!
r.lucas at 10:50AM on Jul 5th 2007
540. ALSO FORGOT TO MENTION IF ANY IS USING THE NIV VERSION OF THE BIBLE IT HAS 44 DELETIONS IN IT!WHEN LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH START AT THE TOP!where did the other bible's come from,when you back track and find their is only one source(HEBREW/GREEK)WHICH WAS TRANSLATED FROM ARAMAIC OLDER STILL IS THE TORAH/TANAKH WHICH STARTED IT ALL,OH I CAN ALSO MENTION ZORASTER WHICH WAS AROUND THE TIME OF ABRAHAM/THIS RELIGION ALSO WAS VERRY MUCH LIKE THE BIBLE BUT GETING BACK TO HOMOSEXUALS THEY HAVE BEEN WITH US FROM THE BEGAINING ALONG WITH EVERY OTHER SEXUAL PERVERSION
r.lucas at 1:11PM on Jul 5th 2007