Turkey just had an election, and the Turkish people just administered the secular parties and the goons in the military a well-deserved kick in the rear end. The secular parties have for decades considered Turkey their private property, with elections a kind of formality to confirm their inheritance. If elections go the wrong way, they felt, that's no problem: the generals can always stage a coup and restore us to power. Indeed the military has staged four coups since 1960.
But not this time. When the ruling Justice and Development party nominated economist Abdullah Gul as president, the military began to threaten its usual thuggery, at which point Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan shrewdly called a new election. The ruling party won a thumping majority and the secular parties were soundly beaten. Now the elected lawmakers have approved Abdullah Gul as president with 339 votes, with two other candidates sharing 83 votes. The secular sore losers boycotted the balloting, recognizing that they were completely outnumbered.
Many in the West--including some conservatives--are visibly scared by the prospect of practicing Muslims ruling Turkey according to Muslim values. Yet the "separation of church and state" they invoke does not apply anywhere in the world except in America. Israel doesn't have separation of church and state: it is a Jewish country that openly worries about protecting its Jewish identity. Britain has an established Anglican church, and virtually all European countries provide state subsidies to religious institutions, including religious schools. Why can't Turkey, a Muslim country, stand up for Muslim interests and be governed by the Muslim values of its Muslim people?
Conservatives like to use the rhetoric of democracy, but many of them have forgotten the degree to which they have become apologists for secular despotisms throughout the Muslim world. Abdullah Gul may drink soft drinks instead of alcohol and his wife may wear a headscarf. But at least the guy was freely elected. I'm sure Musharraf, Mubarak and the Saudi royal family are familar with the best types of wine and Scotch, and we know how the Saudi princes completely case aside their show of piety when they are out of sight of their people. Yet these are unelected despots who rule with an iron hand. Must traditional Muslims choose between Islamic tyranny of the Khomeini variety and secular tyranny of the Mubarak variety?
No. Turkey, like Iraq, offers a better model. This is the model of traditional Muslims who support modernization and free markets and free elections. These traditional Muslims are willing to work with America and they are fiercely opposed to Al Qaeda and to the radical Muslims. Yet at the same time they believe that traditional Muslim values that enjoy majority support sometimes should become the basis of law. I'm not Muslim and most of the readers of this blog surely aren't either. We don't support all these laws, but then Turkey is not our country. Why should America or the West dictate how the Turkish people govern themselves? Why is secular thuggery preferable to Muslim democracy?
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 5)
46. So according to raymond I am self-appointed, Rah, friggin', Rah. Now I am a Dictator, hmmmmmm.
I shall use my own words, if you please, unlike yourself when I am uninformed about a subject matter I can only speak from MY experience. Try it, Kafir, and soon you'll learn that when a person speaks from experience it is their opinions and beliefs related to their OWN EXPERIENCES. Not by bully tactics used by abusive, self-absorbed, megliomaniacs, sitting quite alone with nary a thing to do but abuse people for their opinions or knowledge related to subject. You are a nasty, hateful, sad excuse for a human being.
Please, Kafir, show me when I said I myself am a Muslim? My husband, his family and my daughter along with most of my friends. Even with your lack of depth, you certainly know what it means to ASS-U-ME, yeah?
In a message marking Aug. 30 Victory day, Chief of General Staff, General Yasar Buyukanit warned that clandestine plans to hurt the national unity and it's secular democratic structure. Stressing that the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), faces attacks both at home and abroad, Buyukanit stated that they know what is behind these assaults. He stated that the nation should know that such attacks will not intimidate the TSK. Buyukanit further stated that the TSK would never forsake it's determination to protect the secular and social rule of law in Turkey under Ataturk worldview system /Milliyet/
28.08.2007
And? Why do you require explainations which are self explanatory? Are you so vacuous you are unable to discern what a person writes?
Darn right the new President, Abdullah Gul is not to be tusted, the PM, Recep Erdogan i have more trust in. The President is a figurehead in Turkey, although he retains veto power.Read Kemal Sanli's post #42 and post #43.
as far as Dinesh, he is my most favored Blog, But he is Indian and Roman Catholic and at times Dinesh says wonderful things about Turkey, then BAM, this article. I, as a Christian take an interest in every religion and read and read and read from the source. If I need to understand LDS, Buddhists, Sikh, Scientology, Catholocism, Hasidim I always read the book that that religion actually wrote, not a book or Bible that malcontents have written, I desire knowledge and understanding. My 30 year old daughter is Cuban-American, 17 yr old Muslim/Turkish, the oldest is a non-practicing Christian who holds all religions as having meaning, her Masters is in Religions. my home is the UN, Cubans, Christians, Jews, Quakers, languages are English, Turkish, Spanish, French and German. Do not ever attempt to think I speak second hand. I live what I believe.
Being the Philistine that you are, and Raymond I have met many uneducated louts, of your ilk.
as you so delicately put it I am pissing all over myself, perhaps I am marking my territory, being the dog that you are you should be well aware of this, yeah?
Why are you so apoplectic because I will not explain to a cur, such as youself the reason i was enraged? I found it to be self-explanatory. Then again you are a tad obtuse.
Cheese and crackers, raymond, you actually have ONE Turkish frenemy. You neglected to mention if she was Sunni, Shi'i, Kurdish or other and from what part of Turkey she is from. Apparently you don't know her that well. how infantile, Raymond, Wah, Wah, she agwees wit wittle me and Dinesh so our position trumps yours... WTF is that? This is not a competition or game it is a countrys future, putz!
Yes I object whole heartedly to the Iraqi Invasion. They have WMD's, er, they do not have WMD's. Yes, I protested against the Viet Nam Invasion. i am a disabled Viet nam era War Veteran in the USAF, Honorably discharged. The USSC are despots that MR. Bush put there. They are to perform their duties judiciously, fairly and lawfully. Which they do not. Mr. Bush is not my President. Pres. Of the USA and something as important as 'Nuclear' he pronounces 'Nucular', shameful. beacause, Raymond, Mr. bush has so made this country better (sarcasm intended). 3,800 murdered military men and woman involved in a civil war, Viet Nam the same, but we never recieve a count of dead Iraqi civilians do we? Is their humanity any less important than ours. I fully support our troops, I do not support the war. our men and women are dying to interfere in what is another countrys fight, same as Viet Nam. And least we forget, they both have mad amounts of oil. HMMMMMMMM.
Raymond, buy a Dictionary and a Thesaurus as well as some fine reading then i will make time to listen to your oafish commentarys.
I am an easy mark, middle aged woman, cancer patient, among other maladies. You are indeed a plutocrat and hiding behind a keybaord makes it much simpler for you to demean and harrass people. Although ill, I am a Kickboxer and I sure as hell wish I could meet your boney butt. You run scared and are an isolated person which makes you feel superior by abusing others. very sad for a grown man , Raymond.
Peace.
rhodalee at 2:13PM on Aug 31st 2007
47. Dear Rhoda,
You made several mistakes in your post regarding Ephesus, Turkey.
(One Legend claims) St. John (not St. Paul) brought Our Blessed Mother Mary to Ephesus. However, her final days on earth were in Jerusalem, visit the Church of the Dormition next time you are Jerusalem. St. Paul is buried in Rome.
Please don't swear in your posts.
I possess dual-citizenship so I am well aware of how men behave in Europe and America. Turkish men seem smitten with American women.
I was in the main Synagogue in Istanbul.
Haggia Sophia is an Eastern Catholic Church, it was built by Catholic Christians.
I also like Dinesh, I'm happy to hear he is Catholic Indian-American as is one of my Godchildren.
Anne at 4:37PM on Aug 31st 2007
48. 47. Rhodalee, in post #22 your sorry @$$ wrote: "I have lived the Turkish Muslim life for almost a quarter of a decade"
Technically, that does not say that you yourself are Muslim. But – ask 100 intelligent people and 99 will assume that you are Muslim. Is that our mistake? Perhaps. But, it is really your fault for being deceptive. An intelligent person would have indicated that little piece of information from the beginning.
I find your last paragraph enlightening. You wrote: "You are indeed a plutocrat and hiding behind a keybaord makes it much simpler for you to demean and harrass people. Although ill, I am a Kickboxer and I sure as hell wish I could meet your boney butt. You run scared and are an isolated person which makes you feel superior by abusing others. very sad for a grown man , Raymond.
Peace. "
I am no more hiding behind a keyboard than you are. "Demeaning and harassing."? What a hypocrite! review your own posts for yourself. You start off demeaning others first and when we hold you accountable, you cry foul. What a twisted mind.
And finally, what kind of person wishes to do violence to another and then closes with "peace". What a sick and twisted heart you have. Obviously, the Muslim experience has not served you well. Perhaps you are right. If you are an example of what becomes of people who spend time in a Muslim life, maybe we should be concerned about a Muslim governed country.
I won’t waste any more time debating you. It would be like wrestling with a pig. In the end, you are both covered in mud and the pig likes it.
Now FO and crawl back into some 12th century hole where you belong!
ray at 6:20PM on Aug 31st 2007
49. Anne,
Right you are about Paul. in so far that he did not accompany Mary to Ephesus, it was John. Paul did three missions in Ephesus, though. There is a division in the burial site of Mary, some say Jerusalem others believe Ephesus.
Paul authored the Ephesian letters, the circular letter.
Due to the constant reference in the Qur'an in reverence and recognition of Mary as the Mother of Jesus, it is felt Mary is buried in Ephesus. Miram Ana, Mother Mary, is a shrine to Mary and quite etherial.
If you do not approve of my use of obscenities, i suggest you do not read my posts.
Good Evening.
rhodalee at 7:57PM on Aug 31st 2007
50. raymundo, LOL FRIGGIN" LOL!!! You made my night actually my decade, knowing I twisted yours in a knot, a teeny knot, I am sure.
What did I teach little Ray-Ray about that word ASS-U-ME, huh?
Scarem seni, ipne!! Cok, cok alamsiz, seytan. Cok surek, surek, surek..............
Acting as infantile as you usually do on this blog, posting your misdirected, ignorant, sad excuse for intellectual banter has only been proof positive to all that post her what an incredibly disturbed, disgusting, crude, ill-tempered, ill-mannered, sorry, lonely, miserable sot that deserves not a single persons attention paid to what you never say.
rhodalee at 8:12PM on Aug 31st 2007
51. Dear Rhodalee,
Our Blessed Mother Mary is NOT buried in Ephesus. She as the Mother of Jesus who is God, Theotokos was assumed BODY and soul into Heaven.
Turkey has such a beautiful Christian History. I pray for her conversion.
Anne at 7:21AM on Sep 1st 2007
52. Anne, if you have read the christian History of Paul, John and Mary, you would have also read about the indecisiveness of christian Theologists as Mary being buried in Jerusalam or Ephesus, there has not been a conclusion to this.
As for praying for coversion, if you were referring to me, I am Southern Baptist. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, I was baptized at the age of 12, as was Christ. You, being Roman catholic have different beliefs than I. For exg, We are not Maryists, we do not pray TO Mary, we recognize her as the Mother Of Jesus but we do not hold her up to the same level as our Lord Jesus Christ. You believe in a Pope, you believe in confession, these are all mortals. We believe our prayers and questions should only be directed to Jesus. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. You place stues of the Virgin Mary, statues of a bleeding, crucified Christ in your house of worship, we consider them as Idols, you know what is said, as well, regarding Idols. In my church you will only find one wooden cross on the wall. The Catholic Bible had canons added to it after the Apostles in the New Testament and the Jews who wrote the Old Testament had completed the Bible. Catholics were responsible for the Crusades and Inquistion. This is why I do not understand, Anne, why it upsets you that the Haghia Sophia had been converted into a Mosque(Cami). Religions are cruel and thoughtless and do heartless things which insults our beliefs, yet that is the way extremism works. Catholocism also performs ritualistic prayer, just as Muslims and Jews do. Sorry I'm not too clear,knowledgeable about this,Hail Mary, Mother of Grace our Lord is with you,do not know more,I do not understand how you say a few Hail Marys and a mortal man redeems you and all you've done. Is that not up to the prayers between you and Jesus/God?
when you study World Religions, you find more similarities than differences. Because one has knowledge and understanding of said religions do not presume they are of that religion.
Beacuse according to christ we are to be tolerant of other religions, and as a Baptist you have the right to hold any religious belief you desire, altough not a member until baptism.
I just realized when i reread your post you were speaking of the conversion of the Muslims in Turkey, sorry, i am quite the idiot at times.
why must other religions feel it is their right to interfere and convert those of other belief? it is up to God, not us.
you had said yesterday you hold dual citizenship, i coul as well, if I so wished. I am American and it is the only passport I need or desire.
have a Great day Anne
Please excuse my typos, my computer is freaking OUT!!!
When you start to study other religions you find more similarities than differences.
or how you allow a mortal man, the Pope, tell you when, what and how to live your life. You know all of that is in the Bible.
Anne,it has been a pleasure and plaese do not presume that if someone is well versed on other religions they are of that religion. Knowledge is power. Boos, Books, Books
rhodalee at 12:11PM on Sep 1st 2007
53. Turkey's AK Party has nothing to do with Democracy. AK Party is an islamofascist or more precisely, "A Covert Totalitarian Ideology" as Bassam Tibi put it.
AK Party is just using democracy to seize power, so did hitler and chavez..
Also they are very blunt about what they are doing. Please read the quotes from Erdogan:
“Democracy is not an aim but a means to an end.” -Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
“Democracy is like a train, we shall get out when we arrive at the station we want.” - Recep Tayyip Erdogan
We have seen the a similar movie in 1934 when hitler came to power and abolish the free elections. When the "train" arrive to the destination (whatever Erdogan meant, maybe sharia rule), it would be too late to bring it back. It's a one way street,like it happened in Iran..
To read more about Islamofascist AK Party, visit akpwatch.org
AKP Watch at 5:18PM on Sep 1st 2007
54. Person #52, who does not use a name, Abdullah Gul, should be your worry, sir or Mdm.. he is a devout Muslim and is not trusted.
29.08.2007
Turkey's powerful military yesterday boycotted the swearing in of Pres. Elect Abdullah Gul in Parliament.The absence of the military is seen asa asign of protest against Guls presidency, a member of the Islamic-rooted Justice and Develpment Party (AKP).
The boycott shows that the military is suspicious of Gul as President and has started a debate on his legitimacy. Gul's term will probably mark a period of increased tensions among the various state institutions, more specifically between the military and prime ministry-presidency axis.
It's not good boycotting Gul, said former PM Mesut Yilmaz yesterday.
Cheif of General Staff, Gen. buyukanit signaled thepossibilities of increasing tensions through a statement he made late Monday, a day before Gul's election, for the occasion of Victory Day.
"Our nation has been watching the actions of those
separatists who can't embrace Turkey's unitary natures and centers of evil that try to corrode the secular nature of the Turkish Republic", said Buyukanit in his statement.
He also said that the "nefarious plans to ruin Turkey's secular and democratic nature emerge in different forms every day", "The Turkish Armed Forces,TSK, will, just as it has so far, keep it's determination toguard social, democratic and secular Turkey", he said.
Buyukanit said there were efforts to erode the Turkish Armed Forces but they won't be deterred by such betrayals and attacks.
Turkish Daily News
The TSK would never allow anything or anyone to mess with Ataturks worldview.
Gul is the trouble here. Islamofacist is not a word.
Since Erdogan is the President, as long as he doesn't cozy up too closely with Gul, no worries. After that, if it occurs, the Turkish Military WILL prevent it.
rhodalee at 9:07PM on Sep 1st 2007
55. Pardon my typos in the last post, I was trying to type quickly.
rhodalee at 9:09PM on Sep 1st 2007
56. “Why can't Turkey, a Muslim country, stand up for Muslim interests and be governed by the Muslim values of its Muslim people?” Because they will oppress their own Muslim people (see Taliban), seriously threaten & kill non-Muslims (see Jews in all countries that came under Muslim control) and attempt to conquer and control the rest of the world. Haven’t you seen any news stories in the last 5 years/
You mention Israel as a Jewish state, and ask why we can not accept a Muslim state. In Israel, "separation of church and state" exists. There is no religious test for citizenship or any other right. Religious leaders decide nothing except matters pertaining to their own religion, as in the US. And, unlike Iran, religion does not include absolutely EVERYTHING.
In Israel, religious parties never have (& probability never will) rule the country. But even if they did, non-Jews (Muslim, Christian, or others) are treated equally under the law, can live, work, worship, vote, serve in their Congress in any way they please as long as they do not actively harm others.
The US is frequently called a Christian country, and these same rules apply (although they have not always applied in Christian countries throughout history.) BUT THEY DO NOT APPLY IN ANY SINGLE MUSLIM COUNTRY. In NO Muslim country can a Jew (& frequently a Christian, for example a Korean) have more than third class status under any circumstances. In some, a Jew is not even allowed to enter (Saudi Arabia; also see the new Afghani constitution on Jews) and in many, a Jew risks being killed on sight.
Islam means submission, and as long as that is submission to religious leaders who preach oppression and murder of anyone different plus jihad to rule the world under a caliphate, Islam can not co-exist in the modern world.
Islam has nothing to do with democracy. Elections are a tool used by the faction who wants to conquer the world by burrowing from within, rather than by overt war. But, in either case, Islam is still going to try to conquer the world and make everyone else submit to their rule.
If you support this government, you have the real, major risk that they can not be voted out, but will stage a Hamas-like take-over to remain in power. A religious dictator (Iran) is worse than a secular one, because it does not die with the ruler, but is closer to being immortal.
Only when there is a radical change in Islam (not yet close to happening) to allow for peaceful co-existence with those who disagree (in their own country, as well as in other countries) can a Muslim government be considered as safe for its own citizens, as well as for the rest of the world!
ira0 at 11:41AM on Sep 3rd 2007
57. “Must traditional Muslims choose between Islamic tyranny of the Khomeini variety and secular tyranny of the Mubarak variety?”
Yes! The Muslim world knows nothing else and is constitutionally unable to tolerate anything else. (I remember articles a while back saying that the (politically incorrect) solution in Iraq would have been to impose a benign dictator.)
Unfortunately, the liberal politicians of the 20th century, gave them freedom, their own countries, etc. without requiring the generations of training needed to produce a functioning society that benefits all its citizens.
(And, to be politically incorrect, the same applies to all the Black countries in Africa.)
How many Muslim (or Black African) countries are functioning as productive societies benefiting their citizens, And what would happen if they did not have the crutch of vast natural resources (oil, diamonds, gold, minerals, …) to misuse, waste, and steal from their people?
ira0 at 12:00PM on Sep 3rd 2007
58. ira0, what's with the rant concerning Judaism and the perfection of Israeli's government? Where did that come from?
My daughter's good friend from The George School, Quaker, is Palastinian on full scholarship. the Israeli gov't would not allow him to come back to finish his senior year. Why? He lives in Gaza. The place where his brother, after Israeli imposed curfew, made a dash for the corner store to get milk for his baby sister, he was shot dead by the Israeli Army 10' from his family. All because his baby sister had no milk. He ( her friend ) emailed pictures of the view from his front yard, tanks and guns trained on the neighborhood. Great way to exist, yeah? They are not Islamic fanatics or Jihadists. Why are they treated with such cruelty?
Post 55, Turkey is a secular Democracy, separation of church and state, Ataturk had that in the Turkish Constitution, read it, as well as every religion has the right to choose their religion and worship freely. I suppose that the Synagogue in Istanbul that was bombed by the PKK, Kurdish, not Turks was just some place they like to call a Synagogue?
If you are worried about the new President, Abdullah Gul, It is the PM who makes the decisions and the TSK, Turkish Military would never allow an Islamic Government to rule Turkey. It will never happen.
What is with all Americans and their "man on the grassy knoll' Conspiracy Theorists that have applied this to all Muslims and their fear that Taliban ( Afghani ), and Hamas which has absolutely nothing to do with Turkey, are going to take over the entire world? So paranoid. Islam does not mean to submit, have you ever read the true Qur'an. I've read the Talmud, Bible and Qur'an, so much in common amd so much hatred between them.
Sir or Mdm., please calm down, this is not the McCarthy era where the Commie, Pinkos, Reds are going to take over the world and make us submit to their beliefs. You see the truth in that one, yeah. Same thing here.
rhodalee at 12:34PM on Sep 3rd 2007
59. reply to 57: rhodalee:
1: “57. ira0, what's with the rant concerning Judaism and the perfection of Israeli's government? Where did that come from?”
It came to rebut DD using Israel as an example of a religious government, which it is not. (In fact it is actively anti-religious). But why the use of the term “rant”? Is this a discussion of ideas, or an ad hominem attack? And I actively dislike the Israeli government, but I can tell the facts about the situation. And why do you add the word “perfection”; I don’t recall using it. Your antisemitism is showing; I chose Jews as an example of those not given rights by Muslim countries. You added Judaism, and perfection and then attacked.
2: Your daughter’s Palestinian friend has nothing to do with the post (but only to do with attacking Israel), but I will speculate. Even assuming the story is true (unlikely, as most people shot dead by the Israelis were firing a gun at the time, not going for milk) (remember the posts about Islam being permitted to lie to advance their purposes) (remember the forged pictures during the last war) (remember the story of the kid that was shot, which turned out to be a pre-planned PR campaign) (remember the 3000 claimed killed in the Israeli attack on the Gaza Jenin refugee camp, which turned out to be only 42 people, 39 of them heavily armed)
a: that’s one of the things a curfew is designed for, to keep innocents out of the crossfire; surely she could have survived on other food for the brief time needed.
b: "they are not fanatics": so who elected Hamas; who danced in the streets after 9/11; read up on Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, the source of Hamas); who still insists on a goal of killing every Israeli & or Jew (certainly not a Quaker goal!)
c: why are the tanks and guns there? to fight terrorists. Look what happened when Israel left. The violence and murder zoomed.
d: AND, perhaps your daughter’s friend was himself (or his brother or father was) a terrorist (or he may call it a freedom fighter) but feels he will do more harm to Israel and good for his cause by claiming Israeli brutality.
Of course you will ignore these points, as they and the facts they are based on, may interfere with your prejudiced opinions.
3: By the way, is the synagogue filled by & used by a full congregation, or is it a building of historical interest left over by a once thriving community that had to flee for survival (personal or religious)?
4: (back to the topic) re: Islam taking over the world: in the past years, I have heard this said by Muslims across the world, from Indonesia to England, but have never heard a single Muslim leader deny it (or condemn murder, beheadings, terrorism, killing infidels, …)
5: (and again, off the topic) I’m glad you’ve read the Talmud, Bible and Qur'an. Too bad you understood none of them. All may call for the same thing (although I am not sure they do) but all are interpreted in such different ways that they have nothing in common. Please explain suicide bombers attacking the WTC on 9/11 (and the 12 year old girl’s birthday party in a pizza shop in Israel, the bombings in London & Madrid and thousands of other attacks on civilians) in the light of the Koran (although I have not heard any major Muslim leaders condemn this as being anti-Koranic) and show how your versions of the Bible and Talmud also support it.
6: Islam does not mean to submit: Sorry, I‘ve heard many Muslims interpreting it so. What does it mean in your version.
ira0 at 2:44PM on Sep 3rd 2007
60. ira0, must you go on forever, I did not say you said the government of Israel was perfect, it is inferred in many of your run on sentences. To infer Taliban,(Afghani), or Hamas,(Palastinian), has anything at all to do with Turkey is so far off base I can no longer see it.
To accuse me of anti-semitism is defamation of character, of which you know not a wit about me.
The omnipresent Israel, you claim, has a government that is actively anti-religious, are their leaders not Jews? The same goes for Turkey, although PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan is Muslim he abides by the Turkish Constitution, separation of church and state. Indeed it was a synagogue used by the Jews in Istanbul to worship, such an absurd accusation. Funny how you judge me as a racist, pot calling the kettle black, yes?
You act if Jews are the only victims of violence, I suppose the 28,000 Iraqi civilians murdered, women, children, as well as infants were all killed by Iranian terrorists.
You, sir, have never been to Turkey, secular democracy and are unawares of the culture oftheir society.
What about the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur, being African dark skinned peoples makes it less tragic?
Beheadings, Sharia law, burqa, niqab and abaya all fundamentalist Islamic iventions.
Shameful that you call a young boy getting his infant sister milk a terrorist and implying the rest of the family may be, also.
You questioned why I mentioned Palestinians, beacuse you brought up Hamas. Get it?
The new President of Turkey is Abdullah Gul, devout Muslim, not cared for at all. It is the PM that is the main person involved in governmental issues.
The disinformation you throw about like a rubber ball is detrimental to all mankind. Tolerance is the only answer, understanding the religion as the religion was written.
You make me tired, you will always be ignorant regarding the truth of moderate Muslims and will refuse to go to religion specific sites to better understand anothers beliefs. Bigots are bigots and shall remain as such until the end of days... Which according to you is soon and by Muslims.
So sad to see this country becoming a remnant of the KKK. Hatred, elitism and superiority.
rhoda lee at 10:01PM on Sep 3rd 2007