Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held.
The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion.
My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it.
Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
You can watch the entire debate here.
If you want to read more about my views, you can find them in my new book What's So Great About Christianity.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 44)
31. Randy, that's an excellent observation. I actually know a real Christian myself. He is a great man and his light is not hidden under a bushel... and believe me, once you meet someone whose light truly shines, there's never any question in your life about what that metaphor is all about. T.K. is as fine a human being as we could all hope to be or know and he's what I wish more Christians were. A community of people like him would be a holy place indeed, one that showed the world the >TRUE< value of living a Christian life the way it's supposed to be.
People flogging their pathetic books who run around saying "God does SO exist, neener neener neener!" are a fine example of people who missed the point entirely. Richard Craniums, all!
JohnHedtke at 12:50AM on Oct 25th 2007
32. You don't understand how morals evolved so you beat your chest and tell children "GOD DID IT!" You're just another supporter of intelligent design. To fill in our gaps in knowledge with "God did it" only raises more questions than it answers.
But even with your "creator" hypothesis you still can logically only posit that there was a designer. Maybe many designers. Maybe the designer is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But I bet you have one specific hope for who it is -- your sky-god of the Bible. How quaint.
Rick at 7:34PM on Oct 24th 2007
33. (2 Timothy 4:3-4) . . .For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.. . .
Whalen Yankee at 7:39PM on Oct 24th 2007
34. Wow-I had to stop watching, b/c Hitchens spent too much time complaining about the past wrongdoings of the Catholic chuch. Puh-lease! I think we'd all agree that what they have done is NOT Christian, and that their shadow should not be on the whole faith! I follow Jesus and God's word through the Bible-I don't follow a "religion." It's a relationship.
dancenerd98 at 7:35PM on Oct 24th 2007
35. #6. Ken - You admit there is a God since you attribute the existence of evil to God.
Are you certain God created evil or is there a bit of mystery due to free will?
How free is the will? It can't be measured unless your a strict Calvinist LOL.......
Hitchen's had better pray there is no God!
tedfio1 at 7:36PM on Oct 24th 2007
36. 2 fine intellects...beats the shit out of what we get on TV and from our politicians...The winner is....depends on your disposition towards religion.
To promote both find Hitchens'..my favorite liberal...column on bathroom behavior following the Craig scandal and check out Dinesh's book "Illiberal Education'...a great skewering of political correctness in our Universities.
twann9852 at 7:40PM on Oct 24th 2007
37.
They both are wrong,let me tell you this,
Iam a believer but I am not a christian,and of course I tell you that I do not have a GOD yes there is not a GOD but a cretor for us those that are not Israelites, the creator became the GOD of the Israelites, why is that so hard to understand He was nobodys God until He made the covenant with the Israelites in mount SINAI.
Benny at 7:52PM on Oct 24th 2007
38. I am Atheist, and I'm 150% proud of it. So many people think that Atheists hate the world and we don't. We just don't believe in God, and that doesn't make us bad. Who are you to say that there is a god anyway? Were you there actually talking to him when he was put on the cross?? Were you there when he said all those things that are in the Bible? I don't think so. Prove to me that there is a real god and maybe I'll believe it but until then, I'm proud to be Atheist. No one can change that.
Ria at 7:44PM on Oct 24th 2007
39. Hitchens is a drunken alcoholic who wouldn't recognize God if He hit him with a baseball bat. Hitchens is a Godless moron with a deceptive, sacastic wit. He should be attending an AA meeting rather than debating.
mlp7595 at 7:43PM on Oct 24th 2007
40. It is not God's responsibility prove His existence to man, it is man's duty and responsibility to respond to the proof's that God has already provided. Belief in God is exactly that, it is something a person either BELIEVES or does NOT BELIEVE. The hue and cry among non-believers is for proof that God exists. If God presented proof of His existence those who do not believe would still find reasons to deny His existence. The explanation is very simple, they do not believe in God because THEY DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE. All their substitutes, the existential, mystic and metaphysical pondering and philosophical speculations will always end in confusion. The real tragedy is that people who do not believe in God have abandoned all hope and they have nothing; they have nothing to look forward too, and they have nothing of eternal value to add to the human race. Their’s is a future of utter and complete darkness with no light at the end of the tunnel. As to why they do not believe, the Bible sums it up very succinctly, "The man without the Spirit of God DOES NOT ACCEPT THE THINGS THAT COME FROM THE SPIRIT OF GOD, for they are foolishness to him and HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY UNDERSTOOD." In another place Scripture tells us. "Those who come to God must first believe that HE IS" (He exists).
Proof of the existence of God is all around us. The entire universe, though it may appear chaotic, is a very structured place because it was created by one who has a structured mind; the existence of ALL KINDS OF LAWS, physical, mathematics, moral or otherwise, must also presuppose that there is a SOURCE for those laws. It is not a great leap of faith to observe creation and deduce that it is the work of a Creator; on the contrary, the physical and abstract evidence confirms the existence of God. The most colossal and preposterous leap of faith requires me to believe that all of this structure, physical organization, moral and mental processes are nothing more than happenstance. According to those who do not believe, without the help and hands of a Designer and Builder eventually in the unknown far distant future raw iron ore will evolve into a fleet of naval vessels and aircraft . Finally, the answer to the above question is, “Yes, religion is the problem”. “Religion” is man’s attempt to explain God and reach God on man’s term’s. God Himself does not honor “religion”, He does want a personal relationship with each of us based on belief in Him and a living faith that motivates our response and appreciation for what He has already done for us.
Makendoo at 7:44PM on Oct 24th 2007
41. His opinion and I would not like to have it shoved down my throat. I would never listen to him or anybody what THEY beliefe. I got mine and stay with it and be happy.
J.B at 7:45PM on Oct 24th 2007
42. I recently heard a debate by Professor Hitchens with an another gentleman. In the debate he said that his experience with religion was that people either served God from fear, or sucked up to God. And I would agree! If the Christian Faith is not motivated by Agape Love, it isn't Christian. The will that is constrained by fear of punishments is servile and violent, while that which is enticed by desire of rewards is mercenary and counterfeit. God's Agape Love is liberal, gratuitous and inclusive and is no respecter of persons. Human love is acquisitive "love", and so is created by the desirable nature of its object. God's love is creative--i.e. it makes something of that which is nothing. Human love is distinguished by the fact that in all things it seeks its own and prefers to receive rather than to impart its good. God's love does not seek out the "lovely." People are made lovely by His love. The entire content of the Christians relationship with God is two things: faith and love.--or the receiving of kindness from God and the showing of kindness to his neighbor. Only one who by faith lives in blessed fellowship with God is open to receive His grace and love from above and then pass it on to his neighbor.
D. Grant at 7:59PM on Oct 24th 2007
43. Interesting topic. Check out the blog at www.mynewhorizons.org with the post on Ahteism.
steve hinton at 7:48PM on Oct 24th 2007
44. # 38 RIA
Good for you thats what you are and that what you beliefe, its fine with us beliefers.
I would NOT love to be in your shoes to go through life so synical and without any beliefe. Someday we will see and I know you are WRONG.
have a good life anyway
J.B at 7:48PM on Oct 24th 2007
45. D'Souza wins by default. Atheists are by definition idiots, because they deny somehting they cannot truly know or not know. Agnostics, on the other hand are reasonable and reasoned thinkers.
I've read a good deal about religion, the reformation, enlightenment, was a religion major, and Hitchen's argument is very very tired and only gets traction with adolescent minds. Of course religion and christianity (AND especially catholicism) has hideous moments. BUt it has evolved a half millenium since its most egregious times and is truly responsible - esp. Judeo Christianity) for the very milieu in which tolerance thrives. He is looking at historical Christianity. If you want to condemn it historically fine but recenet Christianity is the best thing the world has going for it - no other religion organizes so much charity, is so self effacing - shit - local Maine catholic charities bring black Muslims from Africa to America and they aren't here to assimilate, let me tell you. They pour tons of money and effort into the swamps and deserts of the world. Atheists don't. Communists don't. Muslim's don't. And so on and so on. Plus, Darwin can explain everything that has happened since creation, and does it well (I happen to be a Religion BA, Zoology MS, Darwinist, Agnostic, Jew, and political conservative). D'Souza is correct. More blood has been spilled by totalitarians, secularists, Marxists, and politicians than by religion, Do the math.
joseph ullman at 8:05PM on Oct 24th 2007