Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held.
The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion.
My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it.
Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
You can watch the entire debate here.
If you want to read more about my views, you can find them in my new book What's So Great About Christianity.
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 44)
46. Don't worry, all you liberal atheists will have your day in court with the Lord. You can then explain your theories, and show him your degrees, and tell him he doesn't exists. But your only attorney will be Jesus Christ. He will say to you sofly, "I don't believe we've met."
Dwight at 7:48PM on Oct 24th 2007
47. Trot god out here and let him tell me who and what I am, then, perhaps I'll give him some thought...
I don't think is a very good god that comes to some god forsaken country like the middle east and ignores all the other countries like Africa, Russia, North American Indians...
Hello, those people he chose don't even believe in him like the US does, and like Columbus, he didn't even land here!!
Virgil Cottongim at 7:51PM on Oct 24th 2007
48. What i find interesting is that on this board, for a change, the conduct of the posters much more subdued and less antagonistic than other's i've visited, it is suprising considering the subject mater. i however have not seen the clip (i refuse to you tube)and will leave this debate for others. I just wanted to compliment you all for your behavior, it's refreshing and will bring me back.
(typos are the norm, spelling isn't.. tyvm)
Mike at 7:51PM on Oct 24th 2007
49. It does not matter how you spin this garbage, Atheists do not have an "agenda". The fact that YOU CLAIM there is a god, and YOU CHOOSE to believe in a book of fairy tales does not mean that the rest of us who do not believe the same, "have an agenda". There are good Atheists and there are bad Atheists. We do not need a book of fairy tales to tell us how to live our lives. Atheists use soley logic, facts and reason to live their lives, while religious people take a book of fairy tales and even attempt to instill flat out lies into our society in order to mold false "facts" into their own agenda such as things like:
- "homosexuality is a choice"
- "life begins at conception"
- "the earth is 10,000 years old"
- "slavery is OK"(this was justified through religion in the past)
- "women have no rights"(this too was justified through religion in the past)
- "kill others in the name of god"(what the Qu'ran teaches, and what some christians have done)
Give me a break, Atheists do not "force" anything upon religious people, it is ALWAYS religious people forcing their illogical beliefs onto everyone else.
Muslims have started their holy war. They are USING their religion to create chaos in the world. Yes there may have been some bad leaders and some good leaders who were Atheist, but all atheists are not alike, not all Atheists are democrats or republicans, not all of them have the same beliefs about everything else. The only thought we share is that there is no "god", that is a MAN MADE idea, there is NO EVIDENCE pointing to a spooky man in outer space in a hidden dimension(heaven/hell), and in fact there is so much that points to the contrary. So much "design" that is not "intelligent" at all and has no use. It is blatantly clear that everything on this earth has evolved and life was NOT created "as is".
And Dinesh, YOU are the PROBLEM.
Chris at 7:52PM on Oct 24th 2007
50. #38. Ria - I would not say that you are a bad person for being an atheist. However, I wonder where the pride comes from. What is there to be proud about?
Christians are called to be humble not proud. I know that as humans we can often act out of pride, but when we look in the mirror, where is the pride?
tedfio1 at 7:52PM on Oct 24th 2007
51. I'm surprised at all the God-hating, America-hating
liberals commenting on AOL.
It's written history that tells us there is a God. Just like we know that Julius Ceasar existed.
I guarantee that each and every one of you will meet Him some day.
steveH
steveH at 7:56PM on Oct 24th 2007
52. Comment 32: -"I don't follow a 'religion.' It's a relationship."
Sorry, pal, but your personal relationship with Jesus Christ is part of your religion. Let me assume that you believe that God wrote a book, God had a son, the son was crucified as atonement for original sin, the son rose from the dead, God (and his son) listen to your prayers, and on and on. Hard not to call that a religion when a dictionary is opened up to the word and says "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons." Does calling it a "relationship" and not a religion somehow make you feel more elevated or sophisticated than other theists? It certainly doesn't make your set of beliefs sound any less absurd to sober minds.
Rick at 7:53PM on Oct 24th 2007
53. This "debate" did nothing to enlighten its audience. Whatever one "believes," history has shown that man has shown an affinity to exploit and eradicate those that he may disagree with provided he possesses the means. Whether the mountain of corpses of one group outnumbers another is pure hyperbole if in fact a human life is valued at all.
james at 7:54PM on Oct 24th 2007
54. Dinesh is right and Hitchens is wrong. There is a God. Only those without faith can't or won't believe it.
Robert Wayne at 7:54PM on Oct 24th 2007
55. That is all the more eason that Buddhism is the answer. We do not rely upon an external diety nor worship a god. There is no afterlife in which we will be judged but only the effects of your daily and lifelong causes (karma) which will have you in the state of being in 'Hell' (Something we can be in at any moment) or at the other end 'Buddhahood'( a state of enlightenment which can be just as transient). How much we live in each one of these states and manifest any in between is up to us. The cause we make as buddhist human beings determines the effect on ourselves and the world around us at every second we breathe.
Chant "nam yo ho renge kyo" for Individual Happiness and Peace on Earth. See: http://www.sgi-usa.org/thesgiusa/aboutsgi/purpose.html
Peter R West at 1:05PM on Oct 29th 2007
56. Religion is like a gun. It only hurts people when some one uses it to do so. And it helps people when it is used to do so. It all depends on the person and his or her purpose for having the religion. Do they want to serve the purpose of the religion or do they join the religion so that they can manipulate it to serve them.
R.L. at 7:54PM on Oct 24th 2007
57. It is stupid to argue about something that cannot be proven.There will be pros and cons for each sides opinion.Whether or not God exists should be a personal thing, no one is right or wrong on this subject. This stupid argument has been the cause of many wars. Arguing over religions or the lack thereof is like arguing about the choice to wear boxers or breifs, it works for some people, but for others it's irritating so they choose boxers or vice versa. Why don't they find something better to waste their breath on. People need to just accept the fact that different people believe different things and to each his own. Why don't we argue about the war or something else detrimental. My hiney is a physically proven phenomenon, argue about it's plumpness.
luciddreamer at 7:55PM on Oct 24th 2007
58. All I do know, is that we will NEVER know everything. Therefore, I must have faith. I believe in a God that wants to have a relationship with every human being. I do not hate, any atheist. In fact, I love them, as I am told to love everyone, and I will continue to try to show them my faith, and persuade them, as C.S. Lewis did... not because I am arrogant and insist they think MY way... but because I love them, and want them to know the same God. You may think this is silly, if you consider there is no God. However, since I do believe... for me to not care for others, and just allow them to stumble through life, ignorant of what I have found in faith, would be selfish and un-Christ-like of me.
Billy at 7:56PM on Oct 24th 2007
59. I only consider myself a Christian in a minor way. But I do believe there is a God. After all, Earth is not the only planet created. Somehow the universe as a whole was created. It is vast. So, I believe in God, but, on a larger scale not limited to just on Earth as other religions seem to be, Christians, Muslims, Judisms, etc.
Rollando at 7:58PM on Oct 24th 2007
60. D'nesh, thank you for doing this debate and for taking the stand you took. However I must take strong issue with your claim that the cross is not central in Christian doctrine. While the cross without the resurrection would be meaningless, the reverse is also true. Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross for the sins of all who would ever believe is the heart of the gospel, and without it, we have nothing. Eternal life is meaningless if the wrath of God has not been removed against us, as was accomomplished by his substitutionary death.
Kirk at 8:00PM on Oct 24th 2007