Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held.
The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion.
My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it.
Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
You can watch the entire debate here.
If you want to read more about my views, you can find them in my new book What's So Great About Christianity.
Reader Comments ( Page 43 of 44)
631. Responding to Laraine Abbey-Katzev (628)
So true. Probably the most accurate post on this thread.
ray at 11:39PM on Oct 26th 2007
632. Since the beginning of recorded history, ogrganized religion has been responsible for more wars and the death of more people than most anything else. When the grand and glorious leaders state there is only "my way or the highway" then we have problems.
The good that religion has done in the hearts and minds of people is immense. To those who believe everything started with a "big bang", tell me who or what lit the fuse?
BigBoris at 10:54AM on Oct 27th 2007
633. It's a mistake to make the discussion Religion Vs. Atheism...It should be about twisted Religions vs. authentic Religion...no doubt the perversion of Religions is the root cause of wars. People should keep the love part of religion and realize the damnation part is twisted.
maxina000 at 2:09PM on Oct 27th 2007
634. Dr. Kenneth J. Hildebrandt,
Both parents don't have to work, in most cases the couple desires both parents to work so their kids can have the newest toys and name brand clothing..
I stay home, my sister chooses to work..she has a bigger house, newer things, and soforth, but that's okay..I don't need the expensive things to make me happy or to find joy in life.
What organizations to the rich tend to give to? They tend to give to research, and not necessarily to those who help feed and clothe others..some do, but most don't.
And while I agree there are many in the 'religious' world who tend to be 'name grabbers' and 'attention seekers' for themselves, I don't know that I would necessarily call them all Christians..as Christ Himself said, many will stand before Him on that day, proclaiming all they did in His name and He will say depart from me, I never knew you. (paraphrashed) which tells us, that even though they 'say' they are Christians and followers of Christ, they really aren't, they are only in it to make a name for themselves and to beat themselves on the chest thinking they can 'work' their way in to heaven. So I honestly do understand what your saying.
However, there are those who really do help those less fortunate, but those aren't the ones who are shown in the media, why? because they don't desire the media attention, they aren't seeking the accolades of men..and when they do get it, they tend to push it aside and are called ugle names because they refuse to accept the awards and recognition of men.
So while you are only looking to the one's who seek man's accolades, and see they aren't doing enough, you seem to ignore those who are doing those things..just as the media tends to do.
Why not instead of looking at the all mega-churches looking at what they aren't doing, why not visit some smaller churches and see what they ARE doing??
And maybe also acknowledge, God didn't create evil,
but we can certainly 'see that evil exists' because God is Good..If God did not make Himself known to us through His Holiness and Goodness, we wouldn't even know Evil exists..It is His light shining in the world, that exposes the evil that exists, not the other way around, that evil exists because He created it..
The only reason there is not more evil than there is in this world, is because God holds it back. The more mankind tries to push God aside, the more evil comes out of the woodwork.
Look at America today, what has happened since the 1960's in which you grew up..they told teachers they could no longer have children pray in school, they took the ten commandments out (which say thou shalt NOT kill, Thou shalt not steal) which kids learned back then, and see what's happened? Evil has permetated the schools..abortion has become legal..kids are stealing from and killing each other in the schools..it hasn't gotten better, it's gotten worse..and it's not because God doesn't exist, it's because HE DOES!! People just don't want to acknowledge Him, they don't want to believe they will one day answer to Him..and the more God is told to go away, the more He will pull back His blessings on This country until one day the people get just what they want..and evil society without God's grace and mercy.
B at 4:32PM on Oct 27th 2007
635. Dr. Kris,
Your blessed those are only a few of your patients
I have worked in a support group for sexual abuse victims for awhile, and unfortunately there are many of them.
Not all the one's in the support group are from Christian families, though some are and those are the ones who have the most difficult time in finding healing and working towards forgiveness.
I was raised in a sexually abusive home, and when I came to understand as a Christian, that men at their very core are evil, and not good as I'd always heard, it began to make sense to me..it's not God's fault men's hearts are evil, and they desire to do evil things..and I won't blame Him for how men act whether they claim to be His follower or not..as I have learned that just because a person SAYS they are a follower of Christ, doesn't mean they REALLY ARE!!
So I can't blame Christianity or even God for men being so evil..mankind is responsible for their actions not only before each other..but before God, and just because a man isn't punished in this lifetime for his evil deeds, I believe He will be punished in the next life..
B at 4:46PM on Oct 27th 2007
636. You are well versed on religion but you avoided commenting on the wishes of God.Our founding fathers avoided religion for a reason.Religion is not the word of God .Religion uses God for it's own purpose. Because there are so many religions with very extreme goals,our founding fathers only mention s God not religion for that purpose.
Roberrt Legro at 8:52PM on Oct 29th 2007
637. Responding to BigBoris (628) who wrote: “Since the beginning of recorded history, ogrganized religion has been responsible for more wars and the death of more people than most anything else. When the grand and glorious leaders state there is only "my way or the highway" then we have problems.
BB, you need to do some history checking. According to SECULAR historians, the 20th century is the bloodiest in recorded history. Depending on which stats you believe, the death toll ranges from 60 to 100+ million people. What is NOT in dispute is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the deaths came at the hands of totalitarian regimes that were either atheist or at least antagonistic against religion.
Note – I am not blaming atheism for the behavior of these regimes, but, if war and deaths are the measuring stick, then, it is the ATHEISTS who should hang their head in SHAME, not the people of faith.
ray at 10:59PM on Oct 27th 2007
638. First, let me be clear: the right to believe in whatever type of god man wishes to believe, should be defended. But, the right to chose not to believe and to question any type of faith, should also be defended with the same zeal. Now, at the present, the question about religion representing a BIG PROBLEM for human peace and progress, should be put to rest. It has always practiced the heresy of learning and science research; it has always sought to teach and to imposed by terror, believes that it can not prove to be real, much less offer intelligent and logical arguments about them. Religion moral codes are not valid, they are based on personal opinions. It is not true that believers are moral icons or that you have to be a believer to be a moral person. If faith, as defined by the dictionary, means realities that are not or can not be proven=fallacies, what kind of argument could be presented to prove that such realities have any real values for hardship, suffering, and real life problems?.
Simon S. Moreno at 9:53PM on Feb 1st 2008
639. ray:
"BB, you need to do some history checking. According to SECULAR historians, the 20th century is the bloodiest in recorded history. Depending on which stats you believe, the death toll ranges from 60 to 100+ million people. What is NOT in dispute is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the deaths came at the hands of totalitarian regimes that were either atheist or at least antagonistic against religion."
I think that is in dispute, actually.
Also, you need to take other things into account, like the technology levels of the day. If they had guns and bombs during the Crusades, would the death toll have been higher? What if they had wiretaps during the Inquisition?
Just for the record, I agree with you: It's not a measuring stick. It doesn't change which is true or false.
Tem at 4:11AM on Oct 28th 2007
640. "I was raised in a sexually abusive home, and when I came to understand as a Christian, that men at their very core are evil, and not good as I'd always heard..."
So thru Christianity you came to understand that men are evil at their very core.
Well that answers the question at the top of the thread.
fabio at 4:52PM on Oct 28th 2007
641. Hello, I am anti many things , but C. Hitchens is not one of them. Because of his position in the world as an important spokesperson for a logic that is unfamiliar and never to be welcomed by many, Hitchens has to contend with small minded moronic knuckleheads like D’Souza every day. Dinesh is just the latest dillydallying past lover in a long line of people whose hopeful cause is to believe in something that is simply not believable. For Hitchens these kinds of debates after all these years must be like spending a night shooting fish in a barrel. One can only wonder how he does and how long he will suffer fools so gladly . I am eternally grateful for all of his efforts. D’Souza gets a C+ for his, lest we forget .
j.l stix at 1:08PM on Oct 31st 2007
642. Well, in this debate religion certainly was a problem because all the questions were directed at Hitchens which gave D'Souza the last say.
The 'Tonga' question was obviously a ringer... how is it exactly that 'no religion' is supposed to be a 'better religion' again?
The 'Tonga' fellow seemed to be asking how atheism would have helped better than Christianity did as far as their cannibalism was concerned.
I guess it's too bad for D'Souza that we couldn't have the 'testimony' of a descendant of a viking, a la, "My great-great-great-great-great-great granpa was a viking maurader(spelling) until he 'saw the light'... would atheism have helped him stop chopping monks heads off and looting churches?"
PUH-LEASE!
What I'm saying is ... fix, fix, fix...
pboyfloyd at 7:50AM on Oct 29th 2007
643. ... and the 9/11 murderers... religious of course. Why, except religion, would people commandeer planes and deliberately fly them into buildings?
Or is DD blaming atheism for that too?
pboyfloyd at 8:09AM on Oct 29th 2007
644. @ 639... Tom B
Judging by the comment D'Souza didn't have to actually 'say' anything at all to garner your support... so that makes your support meaningless.
You say, "Atheists really have only the claim of pessimism: "Because of the existence of suffering, there can't be a god.""
To say that atheists are only pessimistic, 'that's all'... is to poo-poo the suffering of the world... that is a LOT of suffering... a lot of POO-POOING!
You say, "Atheists look to creation to explain that their is no creator."
What crap that is... creation/creator wordplay... nonsense!
You say, "Since there is suffering in creation, how could there be a god?"
You built that straw man.. you're putting the question in your straw man atheist's mouth.
You say, "The faithful have revelation though, as well as reason."
Well Tom B... I'll give you one or the other... voices in your head... or reason, you can't have both.
You say, "Certainly the examples of Stalin, Pol Pot, and all the other atheistic mass murderers, rapists, haters show us just what the atheists really are: destroyers."
Well, Tom, you seem like a nice fella but... no... no you don't seem like a nice fella at all now... do you, painting all atheists as black as Stalin et al.. parading out the 'usual suspects' as it were.
I'm not sure what your 'revelation' is supposed to be, but if it is anything like that confusing garble at the end of your collection of booklets... it is a joke!
Even most Christians will admit that the Book of Revelation is confusing, filled with hidden messages, obscure, mysterious... not at all revealing or disclosing... is that how your God 'reveals' himself to you ...
... do you have nightmares and imagine God/God's plan revealed to you?
You have some nerve casting aspersions on sane people's sanity my bat-shit-crazy 'friend'... try to contain your disgust... surely you don't imagine that anyone in their right mind would want to be like.... you?
pboyfloyd at 8:51AM on Oct 29th 2007
645. The question was ( Is religion a problem ? ) as an atheist I would say no, surprised? you shouldn't be I see the good religion does for folks and the good it can bring out of people who stick to the word of their beliefs not a sunday christian kind of person. But on the other side of blind faith there folks like Jim Jones, Charles Manson and David koresh, folks who used the blind faith of others for their own ends. The bible warns of false prophets yet people fall into these folks trance this is the scarier side of religion . right now we are at war, a holy war in a sence with islam because one sick pup thinks he's the next mahamed. guess I spelled that right ? any way religion has been a big part of human existance since before recorded history . I believe the dory was the earliest known god from the stone age. And theres a miss understanding when it come to the communist countries being an atheist state , true they had no religious freedoms in most cases but only because they saw the church as another form of governing body that could compete for the minds and wills of the people.The phrase ATHEIST STATE is an american term brought on by the cold war not based on russia ,ie; the soviet union being a country of atheist in reality the catholics and jewish both still had the right to believe as they wish just without a church to pray in.Heck if you were in the boyscouts in the soviet union it could get you shot but it really had nothing to do with an atheist doctine.I just find it dishearting that many people think atheist are anti-religion, true there are those out there who seem to go out of their way to ruffle religous folks feathers from time to time but that not the way I think . I know being an atheist I am part of the maybe 1% of the worlds population and don't see it my right to impose my ways on others ....please extend the same to me.I simply have no religious nor superstious beliefs,it's just the way my mind works .though I do study science alot and base some of my views of the world around me by it, it's not my bible either i get amused when folks pin evolution and the big bang on atheist like we invented it. if you do your reading you'll find most if not all scientist that came up with these theories and studies are christian not atheist and I don't buy into all of it either ask where we came from or came to be ,Icouldn't tell you really is it that important it's where we are going as a people that concerns me most.
atheist rule at 9:47AM on Oct 29th 2007