Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held.
The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion.
My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it.
Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
You can watch the entire debate here.
If you want to read more about my views, you can find them in my new book What's So Great About Christianity.
Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 44)
76. Two blind men trying to describe the part of the elephant they are holding. Both are right, both are wrong, both do not get it.
Terry Hamby at 8:23PM on Oct 24th 2007
77. dr. kenneth;
when you were a child, parents had one car, one tv if any. all luxuries were just that. Now each family member wants a car, a tv and every electronic gadget known to man. stop blaming the rich for not waiting for a hand out and show me the kids who go without supper. My husband and i work night and day to provide what our kids want and need. we do not whine or complain and we never wait for anyone's hand out. we are too busy providing for our families. You are begrudging us our money and you want me to pay 90 percent to some lazy person who thinks work is beneath him.
give me a break and stop the bleeding please. iam sick and tired of every bleeding heart who wants to put his hand in my pocket. if you are so sorry for the hungry put your money and give them food but leave my pockets alone.
the debate is about the existance of God or not but every debate has to be turned to rich and poor. Jesus was born in a manger and lived his life for others. may be all those hungry children you are so worried about will not be hungry if you bleeding hearts actually believed in Jesus and did what he had done to the poor. He did not accuse, he just loved and actually helped with more than talk.
tj/ an annoyed reader
tj at 8:22PM on Oct 24th 2007
78. Hang in there Ria (#38) and know that Jesus Christ loves you very much.
check out the blog on this subject at www.mynewhorizons.org
steve hinton at 8:14PM on Oct 24th 2007
79. There can be no "winners" in a debate such as this. Those who believe in religion have been "hardwired" or programmed over many generations to believe whatever it is that they believe. No matter how clever your quips and no matter how high your IQ you are never going to undo 1000's of years of programming in one little debate! C'mon people!
Robb at 8:15PM on Oct 24th 2007
80. Shoving God Out of our lives is the problem. I don't need to listen to any b.s. from these atheists. When they face God one on one, they'll see they are nothing. HE is all!
Dyan at 8:16PM on Oct 24th 2007
81. I actually watched... well, listened to the entire debate. Hitchens is one of the best speakers that I've heard in favor of atheism, but he failed on several levels.
He never gave a reason for all of the moral judgments that he made in his opening statements. I think Dinesh should have called him on those. Hitchens also ignored and sidestepped a couple of challenges. Once, he told everyone to read a book instead of answering a challenge and in the other instance he answered a question with a question on another topic. Other than that, I was very pleased with Hitchens' presentation and would rank him in the top 5 atheist debators.
Dinesh did well. As far as actually delivering arguments and staying on topic, Dinesh far outperformed Hitchens. I wish Dinesh would have pointed it out when Hitchens shifted away from the debate's topic instead of replying to the challenges.
If I were to give them advice, I would tell Hitchens to avoid wasting time and energy insulting Mother Theresa and well intentioned parents and focus on the larger topic... and to follow the rules of the debate. When he breaks the rules, he makes atheists look like self-absorbed jerks. He should be more appealing in that regaurd if he wants people to believe his views.
To Dinesh, I would say to pick a few topics to press his opponents about. Don't let opponents dodge questions. Lastly, don't let the moderator ignore their role.
The one thing that really angered me in the whole debate was the incredible lack of moderation.
Joseph at 8:18PM on Oct 24th 2007
82. comment 68 "D'Souza wins by default. Atheists are by definition idiots, because they deny something they cannot truly know or not know. Agnostics, on the other hand are reasonable and reasoned thinkers."
It appears you didn't read Dawkins' "The God Delusion." He has a chapter entitled "The Improbability of God." As you rightly point out, atheists (and science generally) cannot *disprove* anything. So Dawkins says that although he cannot disprove fairies either, he puts them and god in the same realm of extremely low probability and technically he's agnostic about both. You believe in God with no evidence other than your self-delusion whereas atheists reserve judgment on anything until there is reason to believe otherwise. You, sir, I propose, are by definition more the idiot.
Rick at 8:16PM on Oct 24th 2007
83. Bob,
You really should read up on the history of the gospels, and you should understand that free will and an omniscient creator being are not compatible.
Knight_of_BAAWA at 8:18PM on Oct 24th 2007
84. One thing unbelievers don't have is the Holy Spirit - do you understand what that means? All of the areas of supernatural understanding fo God - Speaking in tongues, healing, discerning spirits, prophesy, etc - thes are all real, all take place on a daily and constant basis, and cannot be explained by those who choose not to belive the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Bob at 9:48PM on Oct 24th 2007
85. I believe that Christopher Hitchens won the debate because he control the flow of the topic. It was a debate that no one side could win or lose, though. It's Faith gives we Christians our beliefs in God. For someone that doesn't have Faith, believing in a God is like believing in Santa Claus. You cannot make someone right or wrong for believing in your God or not. It's a circular problem. The fact that some Christians try to ram their religion or faith down someone else's throat cannot be a Christian trait. I wonder how many people who have identified themselves as such believe a lot of the emerging societies, dynasties and empires are works of God. If that is so, then will God accept those that have enslaved, prostituted and beaten the people that that society was created to take care of? Will the founding fathers of America, having knowledge about the atocities of the slave trade and participated be allowed into the kingdom of heaven? What about the KKK, the Nazi's or the leaders in central and south America? Should we kill in order to have an orderly existance, and is this of God and his plan? Man's inhumanity to man is test that I am sure God will judge harshly.
R at 8:23PM on Oct 24th 2007
86. #56Tedifio Fellow American that is only a mistake because until he made a covenant in mt. sinai he was the god of the Israelites how could have he be the God of Abraham he only told Abraham to circunsice the babys at the eight day of birth and that would be the sign of the people that he would become the God of.Remember when he call Abram he did not called everybody those that he did not called are us the Gentiles unless you are an Israelite.
Benny at 8:57PM on Oct 24th 2007
87. I think there's a problem in the poll question. I am Christian and I think religion is BAD for society. I think, however, that FAITH is good for it. Religion in the absence of faith is merely a set of customs. Religion is the worst thing to ever happen to Christianity. Religion is easy -- growing true faith, such is the point of the death and resurrection of Christ, is hard. I'll stumble repeatedly -- but I'm up for the challenge.
swipes22 at 8:22PM on Oct 24th 2007
88. NO NO NO...religion isn't a problem....the DISRESPECT towards people's religion IS!!!!
kasiazlotr at 8:23PM on Oct 24th 2007
89. It pains me to say that Hitchens won (which he did) since he's such a drunken right wing dirtbag
You'll excuse me for saying but if you think Hitchens is a 'right wing dirtbag' you don't know what your talking about.
twann9852 at 8:23PM on Oct 24th 2007
90. church-6 temple-6 mosque-6. God our creator ,is not a religion. God is about faith. These so called places of worship are actually a devise of satin deceiving billions.The purpose of your life on this earth ruled by satin is to see if you are worthy to belong to Gods future kingdom on earth with the Lord Jesus Christ as our leader.People seem to associate these religions as Gods creation. This so wrong.Anyone who needs to understand what there life meaning is just needs to read the Bible. For those who think the Bible is man made simply read the Revelation which was written 2000 years ago for it predicts all that is going on in this corrupt sick world. The immoral society, false religions, wars rumors of wars materialism, homosexuality,droughts ,fires ,diseases rapid development of knowledge and so on. Its all there.
vasilios rigos at 8:24PM on Oct 24th 2007