Is religion the problem? This was the topic of my debate with America's leading atheist Christopher Hitchens before a packed house of a thousand people at the Ethical Culture Society auditorium in New York city. Hitchens is the author of God Is Not Great and I am the author of the new book What's So Great About Christianity. Unfortunately the organizers had to turn more than a hundred people away. It was a ferocious and lively debate, which also had its light moments, and many people on both sides said afterward that it was the best God v. atheism debate that has so far been held.
The current crop of atheists -- Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, Steven Pinker -- are mainly Darwinians who don't believe in God because they regard evolution as providing a sufficient accounting for life. Hitchens, however, says he is not an atheist but an "anti-theist." By this he means that he isn't just an unbeliever; he hates the God of traditional religion. He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity. Hitchens sees the crimes of religion, such as the Inquisition, as stemming from the inherently totalitarian nature of religion.
My argument in the debate was that Christians would hardly recognize their beliefs and practices in this harsh and unbalanced account. For Christians, God helps to give ultimate meaning to life. Religion gives us a moral code to live by and to teach our children. Faith helps us to deal with hardship and suffering. The prospect of the afterlife gives us hope and helps us to believe that there is eventual justice in which the good are rewarded and unrepented evil held accountable. For Christians it is not the death of Christ but the resurrection that is the central doctrine. Sadomasochism doesn't even enter into it.
Some of the most lively moments in the debate came when Hitchens and I discussed whether religion or atheism is responsible for the mass murders of history. I pointed out that even the Spanish Inquisition--a favorite atheist bugaboo -- killed 2,000 people over 350 years. By contrast, atheist tyrants like Mao and Stalin and Pol Pot killed tens of millions within the space of a few decades. Hitchens sought to argue that Communism retained many of the features of autocratic religious states. I countered by saying that if we hold religious regimes responsible for the crimes done in God's name, we should hold atheist regimes responsible for the crimes done in the name of creating an atheist utopia. Let's not blame religion not only for its own offenses but also for the offenses done by atheists on behalf of an atheist ideology.
Who won? That's for you to judge. Hitchens and I are scheduled to appear tonight on Hannity & Colmes on the Fox News Channel to have another swing at each other. Our debate was also taped by C-Span 2 (Book TV) and will be aired on Saturday at 7 pm Eastern time.
You can watch the entire debate here.
If you want to read more about my views, you can find them in my new book What's So Great About Christianity.
Reader Comments ( Page 7 of 44)
91. Dinesh used the spanish innquisition,but focused mainly on that(like what he accused hitchens of).if he takes into account the gap in technology between then and now, i think anyone can conclude that the spanish would have wipped more out of they had the means.but as i stated before, he just focused in on that particular incident.if you take into account all the other lifes taken in the name of God, not just the Chrisian, but every god the numbers wouldnt even be close.take into account the crusades, the violent spread of islam, uncountable number of sacrifices to pagan gods, the numbers are staggering.it is simple, if you take away religion you take away billions of deaths(including those lives taken by the nazi regime and all the others...if i am to believe they killed people of religion in the name of atheism,they wouldnt have killed them if there was no religion)
kemal42 at 4:08PM on Oct 25th 2007
92. An impossible subject to debate because neither camp can prove its platform or disprove its antogonists platform...but VERT entertaining nevertheless...Mr. Hitchens is always enjoyable to watch and listen to
BW at 3:17PM on Oct 26th 2007
93. One thing about it There won't be an atheist in hell,once they get there thay will believe in God. With all the evidence there is against the chance of evolution, they must be the dumbest people on earth.God have mercy on their poor souls.
caylagee at 8:30PM on Oct 24th 2007
94. "He condemns Christianity as a wicked religion involving a sadomasochistic God who indulges in a gruesome sacrifice of his son. And why? To compel people to grovel before him. And if they don't (in Hitchen's portrayal) God hurls them into hell for eternity"
It is the Romans who persecuted Christians and executed Jesus. We learn two things about God in this event. God knew this would happen, but God is powerless to keep bad things from happening. Just as God can't keep bad things from happening to any of us, he could not keep his son from persecution.
Lynne at 8:31PM on Oct 24th 2007
95. To Dr. Kenneth J. Hildebrandt:
You may think it was proper to impose a 90% tax on the wealthiest Americans, but it is this kind of collectivist thinking that has contributed to the decay of our nation. Taxation is nothing more than legalized theft of private property by force or the threat of force and violence, and it punishes success while it rewards failure. Redistribution of income is a Marxist/Socialist/Communist activity that is a proven failure and it does not belong in a nation that is supposedly capitalist. What is needed is to shrink the government down to its bare minimum, force our elected representatives to protect and uphold the Constitution, go back to a gold standard to eliminate inflation once and for all, remove the government completely from the economy, conduct peaceful free trade with all nations and adopt both a domestic and a foreign policy of non-interventionism. The source of America's problems is Statism, Socialism, Marxism, Fascism, Collectivism, phony Keynesian economics. The solution is laissez-faire capitalism, free market, non-interventionism and a strict adherance to the Non-Aggression Principal.
Friends Of Liberty at 8:38PM on Oct 24th 2007
96. For some weeks now I've purposely avoided this incredible slanted blog. However in the interest of the never ending impossible dialogue which presents NOTHING NEW is there or is there not an all powerful, omnipotent creator I found my computer forced me to the D'Souza blog-same topic he's been hyping for daZe.
Just as the debate can never prove or disprove such, this snip of an obviously much longer SHOW, it is unfair to put the question posed regarding who won. Certainly against Hitchens D'Souza comes off as wholly sophomoric while the pomposity of Hitchens is always an annoyance. Next you two meet, might I supply the boxing gloves or perhaps swords would be more appropriate.
Steven at 8:32PM on Oct 24th 2007
97. Hitch won this one. Actually, though I have been religious, I'm persuaded by a lot of what Hitchens and others have to say about God. I really am coming to see that there is no God and religion is just a power structure for those who want control and wealth.
Tanya Reed at 9:20AM on Oct 25th 2007
98. i think dinesh is a moron and needs to get a life. Indians live in a one track minded society and when one fool comes along and acts like him, his community feels good. Dinesh is accomplishing nothing. Dinesh, GET A LIFE. LEARN A SPORT, fall in love without an arranged marriage. Realize that u are brown and not white. Just because ur race comes to america with one purpose only, and that is to use this country to better urself and not give a damn about the people, doesnt give u the right to talk against anyone. u are nothing to america but a simple worker and that is it. ur not white and thats all that matters. GET A LIFE MORON. by the way, u didnt win the debate. ur not white and ur not very smart. ur just a nerd whose points are half-ass. maybe in ur next life, u might be reincarnated as a white man, then u can speak and people might have a little respect for you. As it is alone, the topic ur debating is next to zero in this country. Ur a loser. i bet the only thing u can do is play cricket and study.haha ur a moron dinesh kwik e mart
dinesh is a moron at 8:35PM on Oct 24th 2007
99. Is Hitchens actually trying to make an arguement based on his conception of religion? His standard of religion is based solely on the negative side of human conscious. Natually, we humans have a bad side, the id, and must struggle to retain control of it, however, Mr. Hitchens must view past his close-minded "concrete" opinion and look at religion as it pertains to God, not humans. Humans have watered down and soiled religion, not God. Humans have created religion, God created a faith. The simple message of religion is a base system of morals and a philosophical insights to creation and an afterlife. Those fascists Hitchens named, are not juggernauts of Christ. They are not spiritual holy men emblazened by God to carry out those deeds. They are simply human and commit human errors. Their actions, and I firmly believe Hitchens is wrong in this, are consequences of themselves, not of God.
womietheswami at 8:37PM on Oct 24th 2007
100. BOTH RELIGION AND SCIENCE CAN BE DANGEROUS AT THE SAME TIME THEY MAY NOT.INSTEAD IT CAN REWARD LIFE AS A WHOLE.BOTH CAN BE USED IN AN NEGATIVE WAY!IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN RELIGION - YOU SURE DO BELIEVE IN SCIENCE ! RELIGION - "IDOL WORSHIP"-OK ! A BELIEVER OF SCIENCE TOO IS AN IDOL WORSHIP - "WHY?" BECAUSE,WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT THE NATIONAL FLAG? IT IS JUST A CLOTH,A PAINTED CLOTH! FAMILY PHOTOGRAPHS - IT IS JUST A PRINTED PAPER! YOU OR I PAY SO MUCH OF RESPECT TO OUR NATIONAL FLAG OR FAMILY PHOTOGRAPHS OR OUR IDOLS,IS BECAUSE IT IS A SYMBOL THAT REMINDS US OF OUR GOD,NATION AND FAMILY,A MEDIUM WE CAN LOOK UPON AND FOCUS OUR HEART,MIND AND SOUL TO THE ULTIMATE IDEA ABOUT GOD,NATION AND FAMILY.GOD AND SCIENCE HAVE LONG MERGED FROM THE VERY BEGINING OF THE PLANET EARTH....ITS UP TO YOU NOW TO DECIDE,USE IT THE RIGHT WAY OR THE WRONG.WE THE SO CALLED RICH,EDUCATED,WELL TRAVELED,INFORMATION BANKS,THE SO CALLED RATIONAL - WE GIFT OUR INNOCENT ONES WITH PLASTIC TOY GUNS,VIDEO GAMES THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO BUT KILL,CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS PARTY KEEPING CHRIST OUTSIDE BAREFEET IN THAT COLD SNOW.WE DEPRIVE OUR KIDS WITH SOCIAL VALUES AND SPIRITUAL VALUES AND TURN THEM INTO LIKE A CAKE WITH NO SUGAR.WE ASPIRE THEM TO BELIEVE CASH IS EVERYTHING,THAT IT CAN BUY LOVE,PEACE AND ETERNAL HAPPINESS AND FURTHER MORE THAT IT CAN BE CHEWED LIKE A BISCUIT WHEN OLD AND RETIRED OR CAN GO PLACES WHERE YOU GOT THE CASH BUT THERE IS NOTHING TO BUY FOR A BITE OF SURVIVAL.NEED NOT GO FURTHER,GET INTO A PUBLIC BUS,LOOK AROUND THE ACTIVITIES INSIDE....THE DRESS,THE LANGUAGE,THE BODY LANGUAGE,THE SMELL,THE ACTIONS,ATTITUDES....THAT SAYS IT ALL !! RELIGION IS NEVER BAD BUT CAN BE EXPLOITED INTO NEGATIVE WAYS IN ORDER TO FULFILL CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE DISREGARDING THE REST AS NOTHING.BOTH SCIENCE AND RELIGION CAN BE DANGEROUS!THE MAN OF THE CENTURY,IN HIS DEATH BED WAS ASKED WHAT WAS HE DOING.E=MC2 REPLIED,WELL AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE OF GOD AND THE MORE I TRY TO DEMISTIFY THE UNIVERSE WITH MY LOGIC,THE MORE MYSTIFIED I GET.HE SURRENDERED THE FACT THAT "KNOWLEDGE" IS INCOMPLETE AND THUS,SCIENCE....
UCandL at 8:35PM on Oct 24th 2007
101. Narrow view, Dinesh. Many of us atheists have moral codes that are far more friendly and non-judgemental than the Christian moral code. Ethical models, like those of Aristotle and Kant, for example, were in existence long before organized religion as we now know it came around. Our children need to be taught basic ethics, not religiously biased belief systems. And what's wrong with tackling grief and hardship with common sense and loving support from friends and family? Rather than relying on hopes of afterlife justice, more people need to make a difference now and take action for what is right. Religion is all too often used as an excuse to be lazy, people fooling themselves into thinking they are saving the world through passive thoughts called prayers. Religion does not hold a patent on love either, as many so called Christians would like for us to believe and finally, what is so scary about being part of an age-old natural cycle, where the carbon of your decomposed body becomes part of new life? It's a beautiful thing, but it takes common sense and some modesty to get it and I find that most of the religious people I know lack both.
Constance at 8:37PM on Oct 24th 2007
102. Atheists are always giving us this intellectual bull crap that they believe proves their view of reality is right.The only people who will fall for their dastardly lies are those who want to do the same thing as them:Try to keep God out of their minds,as hard as they,can because they don't want to think about having to be held accountable by God for what they chose to believe,or the life that they chose to live.These kinds of people are going to hell one day,and they will be tormented by this name,forever and ever;The Lord Jesus Christ.
G.L. at 8:36PM on Oct 24th 2007
103. For all D'Souza's strengths, his last comment "If there is no God, everything's permitted" was a gross oversimplification of the distinction, with respect to casualties, between atheist and theist atrocities. Obviously the differences between the Inquisition in Spain and the atrocities of Stalinist Russia extend well beyond belief in God. He should consider the targeted groups (their size and make-up), why they were targeted, how they were identified (whether they be an easily defined group or an amorphous ideological construct), the means by which they were dispatched, what governmental and societal structures provided the conditions for carrying out their dispatchment, and so on. In other words, he should take history into account. I'd think he'd agree that that's one good thing we could take away from Marx: the notion of historicizing events rather than reducing them to simplistic ahistorical generalities.
Begob at 6:34PM on Oct 25th 2007
104. comment 87 "With all the evidence there is against the chance of evolution, they must be the dumbest people on earth."
(assuming your post wasn't satire; hard to tell)
You should walk into any university biology department, walk into the first open office you see, and beg for whoever is sitting behind the desk to cure you of your ignorance.
Rick at 8:40PM on Oct 24th 2007
105. False religion is a problem and is responsible for murder. Then there is the true religion which the Bible teaches and Christianity that is taught by Christ. There is one true God and He is a God of Love and does not punish people in a place of torment. If people obey His laws they can live forever in peace or if they disobey as Adam and Eve did they will suffer a second death and will no longer exist. The true God, Jehovah, wants all to have life. 2Peter 3:9. I feel privileged to learn about the true God and know He exists.
J. Wooden at 8:45PM on Oct 24th 2007