31. William Boyer said:

"Where are the concentration camps, the political prisoners, the jackbooted death squads? Why are people allowed to come and go as they please? Do any of you pathetic jerks know the real meaning of fascism?"


The American Heritage definition of facism:

"fas·cism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] –noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism."



George Carlin said it best: "American facism will not come in the form of jack boots and brown shirts. It will come with smiley faces and Nikes."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1915–20; < It fascismo, equiv. to fasc(io) bundle, political group (see fasces) + -ismo -ism]

J Boyd at 9:48AM on Oct 26th 2007

32. Paul - Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I completely agree with your assertion that I should allow you to believe what you believe and you will allow me to believe what I believe. I wish everyone could share this behavior. The world would be a quieter place to live. If we are allowed to share these beliefs with each other while respecting the beliefs of others, the world will be a more pleasant place to live. I learn by listening to others and doing my best to keep an open mind.

I am as concerned about those who want us (you and me) to believe as they do; however, I have not heard anyone talk about shutting down Sunday schools. On the topic of secular schools, my opinion is they can either (1) separate the teaching of the science of evolution in a science class from the teaching the beliefs of divine creation in another class. To do this properly, the divine creation concepts of the world's major religions should all be presented together with equal weight. Or (2) present them all together as science and apply the scientific method to find which best fits the observed data. The third concept of presenting science as theory and one and only one's religion's beliefs as facts does not show respect for my beliefs.

alan at 9:49AM on Oct 26th 2007

33. Paul - Just reread your first post. Calling those who share my beliefs "idiots" and "numbskulls" is not a sign of respecting my beliefs. That someone may have insulted you with similar words is not a justification. It may feel good, but hardens the opinions of those you are trying to sway.

alan at 9:58AM on Oct 26th 2007

34. You're a fine one to be talking about "respect", dear. Your responses to others on this board have been arrogant and sarcastic if nothing else. You feel you can spout whatever ignorance and abuse you like in the name of "God", but you waste no time pulling the "freedom of belief" card when someone disagrees with you.

No one says you cannot believe what you want. But when a 'belief' based on absolutely no empirical evidence is being pushed as a basis for the education and governing a mass population like the United States, then it is no longer a 'harmless' belief, but a political dogma.

The United States Constitution (remember that?) dictates the seperation of church and state. But since creationism is a religious belief and not based in empirical fact, then it should have no foothold within the American basis of government.

That's all I'm saying.

J Boyd at 10:01AM on Oct 26th 2007

35. Thanks for your understanding.

Look to say my belief in a Creator is 'laughable' is persecution. I go by the creed..."Don't tread on me" If you are going to make light of what I hope dear....don't try and take the high ground when I come back fighting.

In the end...we need to respect others beliefs...
and J Boyd...in my opinion...you are streching the limitations of science to explain all things.
Philosophically speaking...I don't know if it can. Again...reality is bigger than human imagination....look at quantum physics, etc, etc.

And there is plenty of evidence against the theory of evolution....such as....tree's perserved that a vertically positioned through what is supposed to be eons of years....now you guys ignore that and other 'facts'...that's your right and I defend it...but give me quarter.

Paul Thompson at 11:10AM on Oct 26th 2007

36. And as far as 'separation of church and state' the earliest public schools used Scripture as cirriculum....we didn't remove that until recently when prayer was taken out of public schools.

Again, I don't believe that our framers intented us to not 'study' a 'picture' of Our Creator. Not cram it down others but to acknowledge that it has been a moral, ethical compass for many cultures and many individuals. Has been misused, misinterpreted, misquoted, misunderstood...yes...but does that mean we reject it...as a society....well we are and will continue to...again in my belief...to our destruction.

Paul Thompson at 11:16AM on Oct 26th 2007

37. As far as 'separation' here's food for thought-
the preambles of all 50 states refer to God.

Alabama 1901, Preamble We the people of the State of Alabama , invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.


Alaska 1956, Preamble We, the people of Alaska , grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arizona , grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...



Arkansas 1874, Preamble . We, the people of the State of Arkansas , grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble We, the People of the State of California , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom...

Colorado 1876, Preamble We, the people of Colorado , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe...

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut , acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897, Preamble Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshiping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble We, the people of the State of Florida , grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble We, the people of Georgia , relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble We , the people of Hawaii , Grateful for Divine Guidance ... Establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble We, the people of the State of Idaho , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil , political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble We, the People of the State of Indiana , grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to choose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings, establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble We, the people of Kansas , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble . We, the people of the State of Louisiana , grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble . We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity . And imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble We, the people of the state of Maryland , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe In the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction

Michigan 1908, Preamble le . We, the people of the State of Michigan , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

Mississippi 1890, Preamble We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Al mighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble We, the people of Missouri , with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . Establish this Constitution...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution .

Nebraska 1875, Preamble We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . Establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble We the people of the State of Nevada , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble We, the People of New Mexico , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty..

New York 1846, Preamble We, the people of the State of New York , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those...

North Dakota 1889, Preamble We , the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble We the people of the state of Ohio , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common...

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty, establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble We, the people of Pennsylvania , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance...

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing...

South Carolina , 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties .

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble We the People of the Republic of Texas , acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.
Vermont 1777, Preamble Whereas all government ought to enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man .

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other

Washington 1889, Preamble We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble We, the people of Wisconsin , grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility...

Wyoming 1890, Preamble We, the people of the State of Wyoming , grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties, establish this Constitution..

Paul Thompson at 11:39AM on Oct 26th 2007

38. How about a compromise then, folks?

You on the right who say time and time 'I don't like Bush and Cheney. I think they're wrong. I think they're dangerous.' Impeach him and Cheney. Call your senators and congressmen, especially if they are republican, and tell them that you want these two extremists out of office.

To those on the left, the Republicans are NOT going to impeach if it means the white house will be going to go to a Democrat. It turns impeachment from a political process to an ulterior power play. So we must get the speaker of the house and the house majority leader to both recuse themselves from the office. They say they will waive it and it goes to... Rice.

Now, I don't particualarly like Rice, but I'm pretty sure that she could baby sit the white house till the 08' election. She's not seeking office. And while I think that Rice is a devotee of Bush, I don't see her starting the American-Iranian War. Especially after sacking Bush and Cheney.

And to those on the right. In doing this you will be performing a service to your party and a service to your nation. You will be able to redeem the mantle of conservatism from the clutches of these people who have used your party to shield themselves from responsibility while inflicting grevious injury to our nation and to the credibility of the republican party. Secondly, you will provide a service to the nation as a whole by denying Bush the right to set a precident for the abuses capable by the executive that will go unpunished. Do you want to give Hillery the kind of powers that have been extended to the Bush Administration? Do you want her to be able to issue unconstitutional wire taps? Do you want her to be able to go to war with any nation that suits her fancy? Do you want to be hit with 'Oh, you're not strong on security' every single time you object to her abuses? Because by impeaching Bush and Cheney you will draw a line in the sand that says America WILL hold it's president accountable for crimes the commit in office. That they WILL be punished. That they WON'T be allowed to hide behind a veil of secrecy. And the congress, regardless of party, will enforce the checks put in place by the founders.

Somber at 11:42AM on Oct 26th 2007

39. PS... could we please keep the God / No god, Evolution / Creationism blather in the Dinesh Blogs? Please?

And incidently, yes the writting isn't as clean as it could be, but don't distract from the main point that is being done.

And as a third way... hey, maybe Gates will throw a Coup rather than execute an order to attack Iran? Jeeze... you know things are sad when a complete breakdown of the democratic process is favorable to the current status quo...

Somber at 11:45AM on Oct 26th 2007

40. Somber,

Can we defend our beliefs....and ask for respect when someone says that they are 'laughable, embarrassing'? I'd like an apology.

Paul Thompson at 11:54AM on Oct 26th 2007

41. Paul - It looks like we are gaining some mutual respect. Thanks for making the effort. I also agree that reality is bigger than we can imagine and that as our imagination grows, so does reality. Five humdred years ago, we could not have seen the anomaly that led to quantum physics.


Science is not static. One of its underpinnings is to create a new and improved theory to explain anomalies in the observed information. Over time, those theories will become more solid, but no real scientist will ever say they are complete. Scientists are people and, as people, they may resist having their world disturbed by new data. A good scientist will get over this discomfort and, after verifying the data, attempt to create new theories and new ways to prove or disprove those theories. Thus, I don't think that we ignore these anomalies, rather people like me wait for the specialists to improve their theories to cover them.

The first amendment to the US Constitution is
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Rightly or wrongly and over time, this has come to be a separation of church and state. Thus the instantiation of any religious belief cannot be SEEN as state doctrine - the slippery slope argument. I do not doubt that moral rules called out by most religions are a postive influence on society. I propose that most of those rules would exist in the absence of religion as they are the most effective ways for large groups of people to interact.

alan at 12:07PM on Oct 26th 2007

42. somber - good point on the appropriate place for this discussion. My apologies.

alan at 12:09PM on Oct 26th 2007

43. I agree...no State church...but to call someone narrowminded because they know that they don't know everything...is pretty absurd. Maybe we should offer a 'philosophy of science' class in high school?

Paul Thompson at 12:11PM on Oct 26th 2007

44. Paul - agree. As somber points out, we have gotten way off track and should now shut up and return this discussion to the original posting.

alan at 12:19PM on Oct 26th 2007

45. Alan - Thanks!

Paul Thompson at 12:22PM on Oct 26th 2007