My new book What's So Great About Christianity, just out, is already an amazon.com bestseller and is currently No. 16 on the New York Times bestseller list. AOL posted the video of my New York debate with God Is Not Great author Christopher Hitchens on its main page, and asked people to make up their minds and vote on who won. Modesty prevents me from disclosing the answer.
Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, watched the debate and reported with some agitation that the audience seemed to be applauding more for me than Hitchens. Dawkins commented on his website that the New York crowd must have been a "dopey" lot. But if you listen to the debate--and if you haven't, you can find it on my website dineshdsouza.com or watch it Saturday on C-Span 2 (Book TV) at 7 pm Eastern time--you will see that both atheists and believers were well represented. The audience applause was initially stronger for Hitchens, and only as the debate went on did it trend markedly toward me. So is Dawkins suggesting that the audience was very intelligent to start with but became more "dopey" as the debate went on? More likely we are seeing evidence of the "Dawkins delusion," an unwillingness to use good sense and face facts when Dawkins' own belief system is called into question.
One of the most interesting questions in the debate was posed to Hitchens by a man from Tonga. Before the Christians came to Tonga, he said, the place was a mess. Even cannibalism was widespread. The Christians stopped this practice and brought to Tonga the notion that each person has a soul and God loves everyone equally. The man from Tonga asked Hitchens, "So what do you have to offer us?" Hitchens was taken aback, and responded with a learned disquisition on cannibalism in various cultures. But he clearly missed the intellectual and moral force of the man's question. The man was asking why the Tongans, who had gained so much from Christianity, should reject it in favor of atheism.
In my response, I noted that when the missionaries came to India, they sometimes converted people by force. Even so, many Indians rushed on their own to embrace the faith of the foreigners. And why? Because they were born into the low caste of the Hindus. As long as they remained Hindus, there was no escape; even their descendants were condemned to the lowest rungs of humanity. By fleeing into the arms of the missionaries, the low-caste Hindus found themselves welcomed as Christian brothers. They discovered the ideal of equal dignity in the eyes of God.
If we look at the history of Western civilization, we find that Christianity has illuminated the greatest achievements of the culture. So there is indeed something great about Christianity. By contrast, does it make any sense to say, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"? Religion didn't poison Dante or Milton or Donne or Michelangelo or Raphael or Titian or Bach! Religion didn't poison the anti-slavery campaigns of William Lloyd Garrison or William Wilberforce, or the civil rights activism of the Reverend Martin Luther King. The real question to ask is, what does atheism offer humanity? In Tonga, as in America, the answer appears to be: Nothing.
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 43)
46. Glynn, I agree with you for the most part, but there are a few things I would add. It's been long recognized that the Illiad was a tale that incompassed many tales before Homer put them all together. I think if people examined the Bible dispassionately they would find it is the same. There was a program on Discovery about the exodus that was very compelling. I also happened to notice the similarities between the Egyptian Hyksos, a Greek word, the Hebrews, a semetic word, and the name the Egyptians gave to the Hyksos, which is very similar to Hebrew. The Hebrews of the Bible and the Hyksos were probably one and the same. Josephus even says in his history that the Hyksos founded Jerusulem, the only other place the word appears in history. Why change it? It should be remebered that the Tora, which christians call the old testiment, was written in the 6th century BC. The jews were slaves in Babilon. The Bible is a political book as well as a religious one.
Will at 6:23PM on Oct 26th 2007
47. DINESH! We've found the AOL'rs who voted for you!
"One-Third of Americans Believe in Ghosts and UFOs, Poll Finds"
Keep developing That fan base fella. Fertile ground fer sure.
Bill at 6:30PM on Oct 26th 2007
48. PV at #27 says...
"I would like to ask what would the world be like if God did not exist. Well, the way everyone is voting God out of prayer, off of the money in the US off the air, etc. we will find out. If you turn either direction murder is at a high, child abuse, abductions, murders amongst parent/child, etc. I can go on and on, wild fires, school shootings, ..."
Really?
Substitute Santa for God in your post, and it still makes as much sense.
Diacanu at 6:29PM on Oct 26th 2007
49. I agree Somber. I firmly believe in separation of church and state. I imagine that christians would not like it if they were forced to pray towards Mecca. I don't support teaching intelligent design or creationism in schools because it has no business being taught in a science class. You might end up having to teach all kinds of theories, like the universe was created by multiple deities or a race of aliens. So separation of church and state is always a good thing.I believe Jesus even stated as much when he said "render unto caesars what is caesars, and render unto god what is gods" that is my interpretation anyway. I understand the frustration of trying to go to church and believe in god. I was raised catholic, and I found it incredibly frustrating to believe or connect to what was being said to me. I eventually decided to look at christianity stripped down to its' essence, and I was finally able to connect with it. In my opinion, life is more or less a puzzle. Some pieces you put together fit, some don't. Some pieces that fit for one person, don't fit another person. Religion is a piece of the puzzle that does not fit for athiests, and that is fine for me. Besides, its' not like it is my business to know what other people believe or don't believe anyway.
sionx2123 at 6:46PM on Oct 26th 2007
50. Bill,
Have you researched this to help understand those who voted for Dinesh. Or are you just spouting things off the top of your head because it bolsters your faith? This is what happens with the science types - empiricism goes out of the window when you want to bash religion. Hitchens does it with his appeals to emotion and massive hyperbole (plus the fact that he does not really understand Christianity) and Dawkins does likewise and gets panned by fellow atheists.
Maybe it was possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist, but no longer. The force of the argument is certainly not backing materialism except by willful ignorance.
Dinesh ripped Hitchens and showed him to be as vicious in his secular desires as any mad theocrat.
The fact is that most Christians are perplexed when they hear these champions of materialism because we do not recognize our Christianity in their rants. Straw God and Straw Religion. I would not worship the God they describe - but luckily the God I worship is not as they describe.
McGrath, Lane Craig and Souza are beating down the empty and incoherent arguments that are trotted out by the New Atheists.
I am glad it is happening. It is causing the Church to really examine what it believes - as it has me. And we are finding that what we believe is far superior to the soulless 'humanity degrading' views of the dogmatic materialists.
The Church is being sharpened at the moment and we will be so much stronger for it.
Bring on the persecution - the Church always shines brighter in the dark times.
Barry Stephenson at 6:52PM on Oct 26th 2007
51. Where do atheists get that they're so logical and rational? If you ask me, not believing in God is sheer IDIOCY. It's contrary to all the evidence around us. If the concept of God were brought to trial, He would be found to exist beyond a reasonable doubt.
Cecilia at 7:09PM on Oct 26th 2007
52. Barry Stephenson in #48 says...
"The fact is that most Christians are perplexed when they hear these champions of materialism because we do not recognize our Christianity in their rants".
Really? What sort of christianity do you follow?
Seems to me Hitchens clearly (if a bit ruthlessly) describes the one who's in the Bible.
Do you possess an edited or altogether different one?
Diacanu at 7:11PM on Oct 26th 2007
53. Cecillia at #49 says..
"It's contrary to all the evidence around us".
If there's so much of it, kindly present some.
Diacanu at 7:13PM on Oct 26th 2007
54. 27-comment by PV
I would like to know why you religites seem incapable of making a comment or an argument from a logical base.
The world looks the same whether or not your (I presume it’s your, but you don’t really say which god) god exists.
A little bit of history and a whole gob of intellectual honesty would be good for you. A few questions:
Why do the various Christian cults delight so much in blood lust and murder? See my post 30. Why is the most insanely religious western industrialised nation on earth so hell bent on sending its young men and women to fight and die on foreign soil against an implacable enemy with the same delight in blood lust and murder? Utter madness – Christian and Islam.
Why is child abuse so rampant in one of your religious cult’s seminaries, schools and other places of the cult’s child-care facilities?
What abductions do you refer to? – journalists, politicians, missionaries, tourists and/or alien?
Infanticide and patricide have been recorded since history has been recorded (and long before that time I suspect). If you can substantiate an observed increase that has been corrected for massive exponential global growth in the human population, then I would be interested.
Wild fires! Now that’s interesting – Goddidit? Or the fires just know how godless the globe has become and spontaneously combust to prove they are non-sentient agents of god’s power delivering punishment? Pyromaniacal humans? A piece of broken glass, a carelessly dropped lighted cigarette? Where do you want to go with this one?
School shootings! How do you want to treat this? Seriously disturbed people whose brain chemistry is awry? Schizophrenics who believe god told them to do it? Angry unintegrated out-group people? Let me know.
The rest of your comment makes no sense, so I can’t address it.
Veronique at 8:05PM on Oct 26th 2007
55. victor58, back your claim that all atheists are social darwinists. Back it now, or admit to being a hatemonger.
Knight_of_BAAWA at 7:28PM on Oct 26th 2007
56. Barry: "the Church always shines brighter in the dark times"
Indeed! The Church shone bright in the Dark Ages, paled in the Enlightenment! Well put!
Joe Bob at 7:28PM on Oct 26th 2007
57. Here's the question that Dinesh begs: why does atheism have to contribute anything to humanity?
Until Dinesh can answer that, his nonsense is merely a hateful screed.
Knight_of_BAAWA at 7:30PM on Oct 26th 2007
58. No one with a brain ever said that everything Christians have done has been completely wrong. Though along with offering native people peace love and god they also offered slavery, servitude, or Death. As a side course they offered flu plague and VD. To be kind Christians aren't the only lying hypocrites out there the Muslims and Hindus seem to be holding their own. If relegion offers you an explanation for life, I'm happy for you but please keep it to yourself. I'm quite happy not being able to explain the Universe. When you ask how can you not believe in god. Hell thats easy I lived in Calcutta. After living there in the 60's I'm quite sure there isn't one. Even if I'm wrong I wouldn't care to know such a god that would let a place like that exist. When you loose a child explain gods plan to me.
Dirk at 7:46PM on Oct 26th 2007
59. Poor Konstantin..you could have spent your time in a great Christian church this afternoon and had something REALLY important to add.
Atheists are just boring self serving fools..With NO morals and no guide lines for life on Earth..AND NO future after life on EARTH...See you fellow Christians in HEAVEN.....
Kisses, Carrie
carrie at 7:55PM on Oct 26th 2007
60. Dinesh wrote: "The real question to ask is, what does atheism offer humanity? In Tonga, as in America, the answer appears to be: Nothing."
I’m not sure what you mean by that. I’m not sure how a belief that no God exists contributes or does not contribute to humanity.
Perhaps one way the belief contributes is that it is a belief that is at least very plausible. I think it’s true. And truth and plausibility are good.
Also, I’m an atheist, and, in my own little way, I think I’ve made a positive contribution. However, I’m not sure whether my atheism contributed to my positive contribution.
Also, various atheists and agnostic have offered a lot to humanity. I’m not sure how, if at all, their atheism contributed to their positive acts. However, here is a list, which is updated from earlier threads, of some of the atheists and agnostic in world history who have mad a positive contribution:
Anaxagoras, Greek philosopher
Diagoras "the Atheist" of Melos, Greek poet
Protagoras, Greek philosopher
Democritus, Greek philosopher
Epicurus, Greek philosopher
Maybe Confucius, Chinese philosopher
Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman statesman, orator, and philosopher
Lucretius, Roman philosopher and poet
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger," Roman stoic philosopher, writer, and politician
Eddie Vedder
Randy Newman
Thomas Edison
Arthur Miller
Nehru
John Dewey
Christopher Marlow
Perhaps Voltaire
Maybe Walt Disney
Oscar Wilde
Stanley Kubrick
Maybe Neil Simon
David Hume
Dennis Diderot
Maybe Frege
Gloria Steinem
Warren Buffett
Jeremy Bentham
Perhaps Laplace
Stan Lee
Bill Gates (perhaps agnostic)
Winston Churchill
Maybe Mikhail Gorbachev
James Gleick
Barbara Ehrenreich
William Shatner
Ted Williams
Woody Mary Wollstonecraft
Matt Groening
Lord Byron
Arthur Schopenhauer,
Percy Bysshe Shelley
Auguste Comte
Feuerbach
John Stuart Mill
Charles Darwin (agnostic)
Edgar Allen Poe
Elizabeth Cady Stanton (agnostic)
Karl Marx
Probably Walt Whitman
Susan B. Anthony (agnostic)
Thomas Henry Huxley
Robert Green Ingersoll
Andrew Carnegie
Mark Twain
Thomas Hardy
Ambrose Bierce
Nietzsche
Freud
George Bernard Shaw
Joseph Conrad
Clarence Darrow
Peirre Curie
Marie Curie
H.G. Wells
Frank Llyd Wright
Bertrand Russell
Robert Frost
James Joyce
Virginia Woolf
DH Lawrence
Diego Rivera
Irving Berlin
Nehru
Perhaps Alfred Hitchcock
Charlie Chaplin
Rudolph Carnap
Haldane
Ernest Hemmingway
Nabakov
Linus Carl Pauling
Karl Popper
George Orwell
Simone de Beauvoir
AJ Ayer
Albert Camus
Francois Mitterrand
Richard Feynman
Isaac Asimov
Gene Roddenberry
Maybe Charles Schultz
Carl Sagan
Thomas Nagel
Maybe Wittgenstein
Stephen J Gould
Paul Dirac
Motoo Kimura
Jean Paul Sartre
Ernst Mayr
James Watson
Francis Crick
Amartya Sen
Alan Turing
Steven Weinberg
Richard Rorty
Donald Davidson
Probably WVO Quine
Wes at 7:49PM on Oct 26th 2007