My new book What's So Great About Christianity, just out, is already an amazon.com bestseller and is currently No. 16 on the New York Times bestseller list. AOL posted the video of my New York debate with God Is Not Great author Christopher Hitchens on its main page, and asked people to make up their minds and vote on who won. Modesty prevents me from disclosing the answer.
Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, watched the debate and reported with some agitation that the audience seemed to be applauding more for me than Hitchens. Dawkins commented on his website that the New York crowd must have been a "dopey" lot. But if you listen to the debate--and if you haven't, you can find it on my website dineshdsouza.com or watch it Saturday on C-Span 2 (Book TV) at 7 pm Eastern time--you will see that both atheists and believers were well represented. The audience applause was initially stronger for Hitchens, and only as the debate went on did it trend markedly toward me. So is Dawkins suggesting that the audience was very intelligent to start with but became more "dopey" as the debate went on? More likely we are seeing evidence of the "Dawkins delusion," an unwillingness to use good sense and face facts when Dawkins' own belief system is called into question.
One of the most interesting questions in the debate was posed to Hitchens by a man from Tonga. Before the Christians came to Tonga, he said, the place was a mess. Even cannibalism was widespread. The Christians stopped this practice and brought to Tonga the notion that each person has a soul and God loves everyone equally. The man from Tonga asked Hitchens, "So what do you have to offer us?" Hitchens was taken aback, and responded with a learned disquisition on cannibalism in various cultures. But he clearly missed the intellectual and moral force of the man's question. The man was asking why the Tongans, who had gained so much from Christianity, should reject it in favor of atheism.
In my response, I noted that when the missionaries came to India, they sometimes converted people by force. Even so, many Indians rushed on their own to embrace the faith of the foreigners. And why? Because they were born into the low caste of the Hindus. As long as they remained Hindus, there was no escape; even their descendants were condemned to the lowest rungs of humanity. By fleeing into the arms of the missionaries, the low-caste Hindus found themselves welcomed as Christian brothers. They discovered the ideal of equal dignity in the eyes of God.
If we look at the history of Western civilization, we find that Christianity has illuminated the greatest achievements of the culture. So there is indeed something great about Christianity. By contrast, does it make any sense to say, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"? Religion didn't poison Dante or Milton or Donne or Michelangelo or Raphael or Titian or Bach! Religion didn't poison the anti-slavery campaigns of William Lloyd Garrison or William Wilberforce, or the civil rights activism of the Reverend Martin Luther King. The real question to ask is, what does atheism offer humanity? In Tonga, as in America, the answer appears to be: Nothing.
Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 43)
76. #72
WTF?!?!?
Please tell me you're joking!
You do realize that even if that assertion were true, the only way to appease such people would to essentially live under Shariah law ourselves.
Or, would you like that?
Diacanu at 10:12PM on Oct 26th 2007
77. G-d is that which created all of this. If this exists there is no question there is G-d. If this does not exist then this discussion is not taking place.
It is the nature of G-d (that which created all this) that is in question.
If no G-d exist then meaning itself is meaningles, a random production of a random organ that will only exist for a short time on a temporary grain of sand in a boundless universe, and this discussion is meaningless and all those who participate in it are meaningless. It is just endless random babble from some randomly generated meaningless creature.
And that is what atheism offers - a brief meaningless consciousness for a meaningless glimpse of nothing.
For my short time here I choose faith in meaningfulness.
"I am that I am. - G-d
Alfred J. Johnson at 2:19PM on Oct 27th 2007
78. I thought this useless, never to be resolved, irrelevant debate? would finally cease.
True to form of actions of the entire country and world, angry, intolerant and insolent when they don't get their way, petulant and infantile by using repetative explaination's for religions.
It is timeless and senseless. When one poster stated
that Mark 1:21, meant that he was raisng the evil spirit or demon from the man in the Synagogue in Caperneum, this is christian based rejection of mental illness. How do you actually know this is the true course of events? The translations are numerous, Rashi, Syriac, Koine Greek, Peshiita, Aramaic and Hebrew. Who knows, what combined languages than became a derivative of and so forth.
If there was no Moses, why is he in the Talmud, New Testament Christian Bible and the Qur'an? You will reply 'they are all Abrahamic religion's'. And?
I mean seriously, who TFC's? We are what we practice by humanity in deeds and words,as well as silence. Genocide, torture, twisted faith Jihadist's that say they are Muslim lie, they are not believers in al Islam, the Phrophet says so.
Fanaticism and Extremism, as with most ism's, are derranged, hateful when they opine and another begs to differ, reactionary by manipulation of words, whether scientifically or religiously, an embellished ire. I suppose, as with our world, some things will never change or attempt to change. I refuse both.
rhodalee at 10:35PM on Oct 26th 2007
79. As a person with a devote Christian background and strong belief, I say there is a time coming in the future when all the true Christians will be gone from this society. We will be with our Father and the Athiest and nonbelievers will be here. That is the time when they at first will rejoice at our being gone, but as the wrath of God is poured out they will wish they had believed and went with us. You may call me foolish now but, your day is coming and I had rather be a fool for God than a slave to Satan.
INell at 10:40PM on Oct 26th 2007
80. #78.
Got any proof to back that up?
Diacanu at 10:44PM on Oct 26th 2007
81. What has atheism contributed to humanity? It has provided the foundation for a society based upon rational thought and scientific exploration, instead of fantasy, myth and superstition. The list of great men and women who were atheists and still managed to live a "moral" lfe and contribute significantly to society is very long, including among many others, Leonardo da Vinci. Of course, it's equally important to note what atheism hasn't contributed: the Crusades and numerous other wars and conflicts; the Spanish inquisition; the misogyny, racism and homophobia inherent in much religious teaching. Accepting the fact that some have benefited from religion doesn't prove that their religious beliefs are true. Just because one believes there is a God doesn't mean that he/she/it exists. When religious Nazis such as D'Souza accept the fact that their religious beliefs are no more or less provable then the atheists, then the world will be a much better place. Personally, I don't need to believe that the Universe was created by some omniscient being who is watching over us. I don't want to live forever and unless someone can prove otherwise, I'll continue to believe that death is the end. If you want to believe in fairy tales, fine...just don't try to force your superstition on me. If you must believe that God exists and is responsible for all the good in the world, then I simply ask that you be consistent and accept that he/she/it is also responsible for the bad.
ACM at 1:58PM on Oct 27th 2007
82. On every chat-board there's always one who ignores all rules of reason and always keeps his mouth in high gear without ever getting his brain out of neutral. Mr. Hayes is the one here. He should take a break and give his brain a chance to recover.
P.J.Ballard at 10:53PM on Oct 26th 2007
83. To #80, Did you realy mean to say "rules of REASON"? You sound like a Christian calling the kettle black. I have yet to meet a Christain that understood "reason."
Joe at 11:15PM on Oct 26th 2007
84. INELL wrote: "As a person with a devote Christian background and strong belief, I say there is a time coming in the future when all the true Christians will be gone from this society. We will be with our Father and the Athiest and nonbelievers will be here. That is the time when they at first will rejoice at our being gone, but as the wrath of God is poured out they will wish they had believed and went with us. You may call me foolish now but, your day is coming and I had rather be a fool for God than a slave to Satan."
Dinesh, just try reading some of the comments Christians have left here, and one look at them will destroy your entire argument. Isn't it clear to you that these poor people can't think reasonably? Don't you see the problem here?
Konstantin at 11:27PM on Oct 26th 2007
85. Atheism belives nothing thus it offers nothing. Concerning science and reason belonging to the atheists here is a question, "How does photosythesis work?" I'm not talking of what it does, how does it work? The most intelligent scientist on the planet can not tell you. No one knows, yet we are supposed to believe it just happens by accident??? How stupid. A simple green leaf does two things, it turns sunlight into sugar and CO2 into Oxygen. Since the process is beyond the comprehension or duplication of science, how can one conclude its development is just a matter of accident and evloution. Why would the process evolve? What would drive the process to come together and form plants, with such a huge diversity of design??? The only logical answer is that its not evolution but the design of a higher intelligence. In short, God. If there is a dope, its Dawkins and his ilk.
As for the shortcomings of Christianity, these are undeniable. Anytime you have imperfect people do anything you are going to have problems. However, to overlook the good things is also equally wrong. People forget that Jefferson tried to do away with slavery when he wrote the Declaration of Independence. People forget that Lincoln, a Christian, did set the slaves free. While we may debate all the reasons, there is little doubt he felt it was the right thing to do and he did it. If men have not always treated women as equals, don't hold that against the teachings of the New Testament. On the whole, women have fared much better because of Christianity than they have any other religion.
Christianity does not claim that people will become perfect, rather it gives direction by which men can become more like Christ, who was and remains perfect. As a result of Christianity, schools, hospitals, libraries, children's homes, nursing homes, homeless shelters, emergency aid, outreach to the poor and numerous other good things have enriched our society. The man from Tonga, indeed had the right question, "What does Atheism offer?" Not one of the institutions I've listed has ever been established by an Atheist. Why? Because atheism does nothing to better man's condition. All I have seen from atheists is whining; a truly joyless outlook on life. Atheism offers a meaningless existence, Islam offers death, and the other eastern religions offer only seperation from the realities of life. When practised, as Jesus taught it, Christianity does indeed offer mankind a future. Our fore fathers founded a country based on the idea of human worth primarily because the majority of them were Christians. The more we stray from their ideal the worse our country has become. Atheism will only make it worse!!!
Hal Howell at 2:07AM on Oct 27th 2007
86. Now I see the problem.
Dinesh is a child. In his picture, he looks like an adult, but he's very immature. He doesn't think like an adult.
I just saw a Mercedes commercial where an engineer described how much hard work goes into designing a new Mercedes. Literally thousands of times as much information as the New Testament contains. And the engineers at Mercedes understand EVERY SINGLE WORD.
Dinesh has read part of the New Testament, but he doesn't understand much of it. He's ignorant. And because he's a Christian, he's never had to consider whether the story is credible or not.
Matthew 27:50 Jesus cried out with a loud voice and yielded up his (Greek: pneuma) spirit. And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the Holy city and appeared to many.
Dinesh, this is a STORY. The author has said, "I wonder how many resurrected bodies I can add?"
An adult, or even a child who can think as an adult, would realize what this is. But your religious faith has held you back. You still think as a child. You are physically old enough to think like an adult, but you don't know HOW.
Write your essay again. Get the facts right. And GROW UP. Stop being gullible. Think like an adult and make your mother proud.
William Hays at 12:03AM on Oct 27th 2007
87. The poll voting is self-selecting. People chose to vote, so very easily Hitchens could have won. Poor reference.
Louis at 12:06AM on Oct 27th 2007
88. What does atheism offer humanity?
A predictable universe governed by the law of cause and effect, in which random, arbitrary, "magical" happenings like "miracles" have no place.
A mind free of irrational terrors like the fear of hellfire and brimstone in an "afterlife".
A mind free of irrational fears and inhibitions such as "pleasure is bad" and "sex is dirty."
A life free of hating those who believe other than you do or who lead lifestyles different than your own.
In short: no hell below us, above us only sky.
Why ask for more?
emelpe at 12:37AM on Oct 27th 2007
89. *Stands up and applauds emelpe*
Well said, well said.
Diacanu at 1:04AM on Oct 27th 2007
90. Morality is independent of religion. Anyone who needs commandments and a fear of God to restrain themself from harming others has weaker morals than a person who already possesses them and therefore has no need for such chains. Piety means acting out of heartfelt goodwill, not out of slavish mindlessness.
God is not a fact, but a need; men need God just as frightened children need reassurance--because they lack reason and inner strength. Fanatical religious people do away with their free will and fail to develop any inner strength on which to rely. Because of this, they must cling like infants to some pillar of strength and reassurance, however imaginary. The faithful only resign themselves to "God's plan" because they are too fearful or lazy to take any responsibility themselves.
It is rare but wonderful when people use religion to improve their lives and the lives of those around them. However, why do some Christians feel the need to attack those who believe differently or not at all? In response to the title of this article: Jesus attempted to contribute much to humanity. But what has official "Christianity" given us? This religion has lent its name to a far greater number of atrocities than atheism ever has: the crusades, the Inquisition, the enslavement of Native Americans in missions, etc., not to mention the countless wars of religion that have ravaged Europe for centuries. If Jesus himself could witness what has happened these 2000 years, especially those events carried out in his and God's names, I would not be surprised if he shed tears.
As for the Tongan argument, it is completely irrelevant. Anti-cannibalism is a western Christian value. To judge the Tongans on a Christian scale and claim they have improved by discarding their habit of cannibalism is as ridiculous as Tongans claiming they have improved a Christian man by turning him into a cannibal. Who is to say cannibalism is wrong? Simply because it was considered a vice in most of the world did not make it a universal moral. And as a little dig, we might mention the sacrament of communion. Symbolic or not, surely that is cannibalism plain and simple, and munching a divine man, no less! The fanatical Christian religion is rife with hypocrisy. How does a missionary say to a Tongan, "It is wrong to eat your fellow man," and then give him a bit of Christ's body on Sunday? It is absolutely ridiculous, and these points of silliness are why certain Christians must avoid rational argument and resort to a simple condemnation of atheists and others.
Let us, once and for all, be free of religion's chains. Let us trust in and take care of each other; are those not infinitely better morals than blindly worshipping a being we cannot see? And for those who require a God, pray to him in your own heart, and not through a priest or church. Man is imperfect, and the fewer men that stand between you and your God, the closer you will be.
Izu at 1:13AM on Oct 27th 2007