Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 12 of 13)
166. Funny. D'oucha seems to go on and on about how great christianity is in his blogs, but when in a live public debate he takes the DEIST tack. Every single argument is either anti-atheist or pro-deist. He never debates a single issue about christianity. Yet here in his blog, away from an audience and away from a live opponent, he goes all googly eyed for christianity. Which is it Dinesh?
eXcommunicated at 6:27PM on Nov 2nd 2007
167. @ 162.. Steve D
Sorry dude... but I am allowed to use the same freedom too.
Seems to be the trouble with all God-believers... they want freedom to practice their thingy but they can't stand it if there are people who don't want to practice their thingy.
I would not describe myself as a democrat because I don't necessarilly agree with their platform.
You seem to imagine that everything that GWBush says is good... well... Steve... even you must admit that not everyone... even people that you like ... are right(as in correct) all the time.
No... you probably don't think that ... oh well.
pboyfloyd at 3:08AM on Nov 3rd 2007
168. Tem,
I once heard said that the children of Man are Ignorance and Want, and the children of God are Goodness and Light.
There is no doubt that Man can be bad; evil lurks inside all of us. But without God, man can be a nasty creature indeed. Witness the millions killed by the Godless nazis and communists in the twentieth century.
Mercy, kindness and love are what make life worth living and God is love, which is the greatest of all.
Ken Berg at 1:41PM on Nov 3rd 2007
169. @165:
"There is no doubt that Man can be bad; evil lurks inside all of us. But without God, man can be a nasty creature indeed. Witness the millions killed by the Godless nazis and communists in the twentieth century."
And with God, man can also be a nasty creature indeed. Some atheists are good, some are evil. Some Christians and other religious people are good, others are evil. Stating the presence of evil atheists is true but says nothing about atheists as a whole, and ignoring evil Christians motivated by religion and portraying only the good side of Christianity is fallacious.
Raigon at 4:41PM on Nov 3rd 2007
170. Re-post: I once heard said that the children of Man are Ignorance and Want, and the children of God are Goodness and Light.
There is no doubt that Man can be bad; evil lurks inside all of us. But without God, man can be a [particularly] nasty creature indeed. Witness the millions killed by the Godless nazis and communists during the twentieth century.
Mercy, kindness and love are what make life worth living and God is love, which is the greatest of all.
Ken Berg at 12:51PM on Nov 4th 2007
171. pboy... no You are wrong... about me... I would defend to the death your right to say and do what you like... as long as what you like ends before my nose... ha ha... I think that people who don't believe in God.. Hope they are right!.... and Hope that if they are wrong... That God will forgive them.. Regards,
steve d at 4:53PM on Nov 4th 2007
172. In this country, freedom of religion pretty much means freedom for Christians. The golden rule in my house is that my children respect all faiths and believe what they feel is best. Family and others tell my children that all other Gods/Goddesses/faiths/religions, etc... are not real, and we are not necessarily free to believe as we choose. My children have learned however, to ask for the same respect we give to others, and haven't been forced into Christianity yet, although many have tried.
Ankh me at 7:07PM on Nov 4th 2007
173. Nothing in the history of the United States equates with this country being "Christian".
"Christian" would denote that the people of the United States, and its laws, follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is, of course, sheer nonsense: if nothing else, we murder thousands of people almost daily in Iraq and elsewhere.
Again, those millions of people in this country, even though they call themselves "Christian" are really Jewish in their reliance upon the Old Testament as the rationale for American agression in Iraq and (as they hope) soon in Iran and Syria.
Then there are millions of Jews.
There are many more millions of "Christians": a majority of which rob their fellow citizens throughout the week and pretend to be followers of Jesus Christ on Sundays (sometimes).
Let us not forget the agnostics and the atheists.
Thomas Green at 12:02AM on Nov 5th 2007
174. Thomas Green - I think you and others on your side are splitting hair on this. It is often said that US law and customs are based in the Judeo-Christian Tradition.
Of course not everyone in the US is Christian, but that is not the point now, is it? Our founding documents speak of freedom "of" religion, not freedom "from" religion. Some atheists routinely try to turn our system of tolerance on its head by taking what is in fact the exception (i.e. the relatively few people who, because of our tolerance, are under our system indeed allowed to believe in nothing) and make that the rule for all.
As we Roman Catholics are sometimes reminded, this nation was in fact founded mainly by Protestant Christians and upon principles based in general on the Judeo-Christian tradition. Our president does not answer to Rome; he answers to his own conscience and to the citizens of this nation, of course in line with his own and our beliefs and traditions.
Ken Berg at 11:54AM on Nov 5th 2007
175. This country's foundations were set to a large part as a compromise of Judeo-Christian concepts and progressive Enlightenment ideas. But take this: Christianity does not hold a patent on many of its doctra. Even if Christianity never existed that doesn't mean these ideas wouldn't either. But, as it happens they HAVE been fed in through the Christian vein, you could call US a quasi-Christian nation, but definitely not a "Christian nation".
Mokele Mbembe at 12:50PM on Nov 5th 2007
176. It is hilarious how Jews and Judeism are never part of these religious debates. Judeism is no more provable and has all sorts of illogical bizarre beliefs associated with it - and yet it is never criticized, dragged throught the mud, or made fun of the way Christianity and Islam is. Is it fear writers have of being labeled anti-Semetic?
So Jews - if berated the way Christians are - would what scream and stomp their feet and pull the holocaust card? Wow - that is really, truelly pathetic. Well - keep on micro analyizing Christians and criticising us - we are tough and can take it. Poor jews - so sensative, whiney, and neurotic. I guess all they have to live for his their hatred of Christians. Incidently, Israel is the most racist, bigoted country on the planet - Jews there treat muslims and Christians with equal hatred; Jews just burned down a Christian Church in Israel.
John at 4:46PM on Nov 5th 2007
177. Judeo-Christian is a recently made up term which is seeks to link Christians and Jews; it is garbage. It is simply an attempt by Christians to seek protection from verbal assault from Jews who despise Christians and - are free in the USA media to condemn us. Notice how the reverese - Christians being critical of Jews in Israel who harm Palestinian and Lebonese Christians [not to mention running over Blonde American college students with their tanks] are all labeled as Anti-Semetic? So - by pulling that card - Jews escape all criticism. In this way the USA is pulled into war in the region because we are compelled to protect our Judeo brethren. Forget the fact that Jews are working overtime in the USA to dismantle Christianity and then working to preserve a racist "Jewish" religious state called Israel.
john at 4:57PM on Nov 5th 2007
178. America is a Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu/atheist/agnostic/Pagan/whatever nation.
Diana B. at 12:54AM on Nov 6th 2007
179. pboyfloyd,
When I took the Miller Analogies Test for Admission to Graduate School, I tested off scale. This disturbed the psychologist administering the test. If a person can test off scale, the test needs to be improved in some way.
Nerds, dingbats and like terms are always applied to the people who come out on top of things devised by human beings.
Ronald B. Zeh at 6:39AM on Nov 6th 2007
180. America is NOT a Christian nation, and it was never intended to be one. The Founding Fathers weren't practicing Christians. The fact that Benjamin Franklin called for prayers to "save the country" is no indicator as to whether he was truly a Christian. What right-wing Christians fail to take into account is that a nominal participation in some Christian practices (like Franklin calling for prayer) and usage of "Christian" language in political documents (e.g., believing that all men are "endowed by their Creator" with rights, etc., etc.) was fashionable at the time. Though the Founders would certainly have wished to avoid the establishment of a state religion, the fact of the matter is that Christianity virtually WAS the state religion of that time by default, since practically all Americans claimed to be Christian. Representatives of other religions were few and far between. So, if you're a politician who wants to connect with the people you're supposed to be governing, you first begin by using language they know and understand, which, at that time, was that of Christianity. You may not believe it yourself, but it's good for scoring political points. The Republican party does it all the time today!Furthermore, the political philosophers with whom the Founders were familiar were writers like Thomas Paine, who doesn't seem to be sympathetic to Christianity at all. So, before you assert that America is a Christian nation, do a little study of the time-period and the Founders' philosophical influences first.
clmyers at 11:14AM on Nov 6th 2007