Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 13)
16. What is so great about this nation is the right to speak your mind whether it be for or against anyone or anything. However, if you study your fouth and fifth grade history books they will give you the information that you are seeking. The pilgrims came here to be able to have the freedom of religion. I as a christian am not saying you have to believe me or any other person. But, I do have the right to say what I believe as you do. You should take and investigate that right to its fullest potential. When will we as a nation realize that there is nothing new in this world only people trying to rewrite and change our christian views of how we as a nation should live and how we as a nation should be a leader among the rest of the world. Yes, I fully believe that we are still a Christian Nation and as long as there are columnist like Mr. D'Souza we will stay that way. I know that Christianity is growing everyday around the world, we see it on the internet and on the news. Sorry but, we serve a GOD who is bigger than any atheist or non-believer, he alone can take any situation that man has made for hate, pain or hurt and use it for good. He does this daily in several lives around the world and he will continue to do this there will be no stopping him because you cannot and will not stop LOVE and that my friends is what our heavenly father is all about. As I always say, love the sinner not the sin. Rita
rita at 10:39AM on Oct 31st 2007
17. So, do we need another 300-page book to tell us there are no monsters under the bed? If there is no God, what are we fighting about?
By the way, the Declaration of Independence IS the foundational document in that it establishes the United States as a legal entity; the Constitution codifies the limited, enumerated powers of its federal government.
George at 11:01AM on Oct 31st 2007
18. Uh, Rita #14, Mr. D'Souza has nothing to do with whether or not we are a Christian nation or what we will be in the future. You give him way too much credit.
Yes, Christians are the overwhelming majority in this country. This is not new. I have to wonder Rita why you and Mr. D'Souza are so threatened by atheists who are a tiny minority of this country. Could it be Rita that folks like you and Mr. D'Souza want to tell everyone else how to live, where to worship, and how to do it? I have to beleive that, because non-beleiver seem to bug the hell out of you both.
David S. at 11:05AM on Oct 31st 2007
19. I agree with you Rita. Atheists are free to believe what they believe, but so should we be. They accuse us of trying to push our beliefs onto them, yet they have no problem, doing the exact same thing to us, by changing the very principles that this great nation was founded on. Sorry, folks. The USA will always be a Christian nation, no matter how much you try to screw with its laws or its history.
Lisa S at 11:09AM on Oct 31st 2007
20. "Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people)."
Except that the American system was established so that the source of political authority *extends from the many to the government.* Or does "of the people, by the people, for the people" mean something other than what WE ALL know it means?
If authority flows from the sky to a leader, that is, even IS, a divine right of kings system (with or without the blessings of Rome.)
Oh, and Jefferson did say "all men are created equal," to be sure. The quite anti-Christian deist who admired Jesus the moralist and not Jesus the magician really did mean *all men,* which would ostensibly include the oppressed minority Christian denominations, his fellow deists, unitarians, and atheists.
11: Thank the founders, make a pilgrimage to their graves and genuflect in gratitude, that this country was established to allow you to hold such an opinion, wrong though it be. It is precedentally CODED IN LAW that America is not a Christian nation. Treaties are law, according to the Constitution, and the Treaty of Tripoli (written to Muslim nations) openly states that America is IN NO SENSE founded on the Christian religion.
That, my friends and foes, is legal precedent.
sandslice at 11:10AM on Oct 31st 2007
21. Actually, to 'an atheist', or at least most of them, morality is *not* "whatever they decide on a given day". A supernatural 'beat cop' is not required for morality; see here:
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2007/07/12/universal-morality-and-the-morality-of-the-universe/
Ray Ingles at 11:14AM on Oct 31st 2007
22. IF THIS IS A CHRISTIAN NATION LET'S GET THE INQUISITION GOING AND TAKE CARE OF ALL OF THOSE NON BELIEVERS. HOW ABOUT BURNING SOME WITCHES, OR TORTURING THOSE NONBELIEVERS SOME OTHER WAY. RIGHT NOW THOUGH WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE BARBARIC ISLAMIC HORDES. WE WILL CONTINUE KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENTS FOR CHRIST. I'M SO PROUD TO BE A DEVOUT CHRISTIAN WHO WORRIES ABOUT THE UNBORN AND DOESN'T CARE ABOUT KILLING THE REST.AFTER ALL THE UNBORN CAN'T DEFEND THEMSELVES. GIVE THEM PAGANS A CHANCE TO BECOME BORN AGAIN AND IF THEY REFUSE WIPE THEM OUT. I'M SO GLAD WE HAVE A CHRISTIAN NATION.
Rick at 11:16AM on Oct 31st 2007
23. Jefferson wrote the Declaration long before Darwin demonstrated the evolution of animals. Do you honestly think that such a brilliant man would not have embraced evolution? Or where he would stand on this debate today?
Linda at 11:18AM on Oct 31st 2007
24. Our founding fathers can be forgiven for paying any lip service whatsoever to the superstition of god because they didn't know better.If they had had the benefit of the clarity with which empirical science informs us of just how our world and our universe
actually works, we wouldn't merely have separation of church andstate. Our founding fathers would have taken church and put it in its own nuclear containment facility, where it could be locked away for a hundred thousand years, until it was completely harmless to everyone.
Chuck
Chuck at 11:19AM on Oct 31st 2007
25. David,
Please reread my comment again. Maybe, this time you might understand what I'm saying. Whether or not you believe in God is not my problem, although it is very sad that you don't and maybe someday things will change in your life and you will believe that there is someone who loves you that is bigger and better and wants to give you the best of this life and even more when you leave this life. However, that is between you and him. I am only the delivery service. There is nothing threatening about an atheist it is very sad but, not threatening. Rita
rita at 11:23AM on Oct 31st 2007
26. DD:"To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights."
--------------------------------
What?? This statement is so laughable and unprovable it had me LOL. Such statements are pure nonsense. Words on paper, books, bibles, Constitution, Magna Carta, all written by PEOPLE. Where does DD show that anyTHING but people write these things?
Linda at 11:28AM on Oct 31st 2007
27. For 3 or 4 days now, I've RE-posted the following. I cannot get a reasonable debate from any Christian sympathizers, other than a misguided answer suggesting that they know what Jesus REALLY meant to say, and his words themselves cannot be taken at face value. Anyone have a real defense? how about you, Dinesh? ...More revealing to the christian argument, however, is Matthew 24:29-35. Here, Jesus clearly says to his disciples when asked when will come the 'end of the age' that (among other things) "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will FALL FROM THE SKY, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken...I tell you the TRUTH, THIS GENERATION will CERTAINLY NOT PASS AWAY until all these things have happened..."
Quite clearly, all his disciples (that generation) have passed away. And yet NONE of these things have happened and obviously could not happen (obvious unless you know nothing of cosmology). This passage, Jesus' own words, makes it clear that he was an apocalypticist, and, more importantly, that he was mistaken. And, if he was in fact mistaken, which HE WAS, then how could he be God?
Rod at 11:32AM on Oct 31st 2007
28. Why does Dinesh have such a bug up his ass regarding atheists? Since he is an expert on Christianity, can he tell us how many innocent people have been killed in the name of Christ? I can give him a hint. Think in 10s to 100s of millions.
Compare this number to the number of people killed in the name of atheism.
Yeah, gotta love religion. Just ask the victims.
Eric at 11:33AM on Oct 31st 2007
29. Like it or not this nation was founded on Christian principles. This nation has freedom of religion, not freedom from it . What this means is that all people have a right to worship (or not) in any way they choose, without the fear of persecution. I love the way some people add or subtract things to prove their so-called agenda. Rick, you need to calm down before you break a blood vessel.
Lisa S at 11:43AM on Oct 31st 2007
30. Rod,
I will answer your question as simple as possible. What your definition of this generation and Jesus is not the same. Now if you will quit taking the verses out of context and read the whole book, you might understand what Jesus was speaking of. Better, still read Revelations and that will leave you with out a doubt to any debate what will happen to those left here on this earth after the rapture of the church. Please, read and find out for yourself!!!!!! Rita
Rita at 11:49AM on Oct 31st 2007