Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 13)
31. Rita,
Ive read the ENTIRE book. Have you? And why do you think you understand it better than I? That is the same argument I keep getting. The bible is supposed to be the inerrant word of God according to true Christians. Therefor, you have to take what Jesus said as what he meant to say, at least according to the author, whoever it actually was. Mark corroborates the same words. Read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman, considered the FOREMOST authority on Christian scripture in the US, and a current Harvard professor of religious studies. He agrees with me. By the way, Revelation is not relevant. It, like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, was written by someone who NEVER met Jesus. But more importantly, is based on a dream. At least the gospels are rooted in hearsay.
Rod at 12:09PM on Oct 31st 2007
32. America is not a de jure Christian nation, but it can't be ignored that the vast majority (over 75%) of Americans are Christians. Since Americans are not members of a single ethnic group, I think it's fair to say that Christianity is central to America's cultural status as a nation.
What do Jerry Falwell, Nancy Pelosi, William Jennings Bryan and Al Sharpton have in common? They are all (or in Bryan's case was) Christians. Again, it's not law. Christianity shouldn't be the official religion of the United States, since we value religious freedom here. But I do think that Christianity is the national religion of America. Yes, there are still American Jews, American Muslims, American Hindus, etc and there's nothing wrong with that... they just make up small percentages. If Americans begin to quickly convert to Islam enough to become the religion of the majority, then America will be an Islamic nation. But today, we are a Christian nation.
Despite the fact that there are minority populations of Basques and Catalans in Spain, we do not hesitate to call Spain a "Spanish" country to account for the other ethnic and linguistic groups. So what's wrong about calling America "Christian" so long as religious freedom is acceptable?
Don't get me wrong, separation of church and state is incredibly important. There should never be a religion of the state in America. But, we do have a religion of the nation. And that, my friends, is Christianity.
Tony Messinger at 12:13PM on Oct 31st 2007
33. Linda,
"To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights."
"Where does DD show that anyTHING but people write these things?"
You are missing DD's point. He is showing that the founders, including Jefferson held this view. Obviously he shares this view but thats not the point, he could be a buddhist and still be demonstrating this historical fact.
Also, Jefferson probably would accept evolution, as do many christians. Don't assume he'd reject the notion of a creator but maybe he would have. History would be different. He would not have cited the creator as the "source of our inalienable rights", or perhaps even held this conviction. What would he cite as the source? We might have a very different constitution.
bigTuna at 12:30PM on Oct 31st 2007
34. Rod,
Again you suggest man verus the bible, who is the author of the Bible? You have just illustrated my point, you keep referring to human author's. God wrote thru these men. Our words are not his words, our ways, are not his ways. You suggest you know the Bible but, yet there to this day has not been a book to stay on the top of the best selling list, regardless of it's author. Shouldn't that at least give you reason for thought. Also, and you can check this out, there are at least 1,000 people an hour in China excepting our Lord and it is going stronger every hour and everyday. GOD did tell us in the last days that his word would go to every nation. Now, I ask you if Christ can survive in a country such as China then brother it will survive here until such a time that we as God's Church will be out of here. I only hope that your will be on that bus. IN CHRIST. Rita
Rita at 12:52PM on Oct 31st 2007
35.
While there were a great many Christians involved in the creation of our country, One would have to ask why they were so insistant on the separation of Church and State. One can believe strongly in something, and let it rule one's life. It's another thing entirely to believe strongly in something, and expect that others live according to something they don't believe.
Consider what's been going on in the Middle East. There are many who want to modernize, for women to have equal rights. However, Islamic extremists consider women inferior, and that the rules imposed on them were imposed by God. For a country to ignore human rights because of a book (that's what religion is, pure and simple), isn't just inhuman, it's stupid.
In a thousand years, Harry Potter could be considered a God....
Ken at 12:59PM on Oct 31st 2007
36. This dialogue about whether or not America is a Christian nation seems useless. It detracts from the real, bottomline issue: What have you done with the man, Jesus?
Being born or living in a "Christian" nation doesn't answer that question. Having "Christian" parents or going to a "Christian" church or school doesn't answer it.
To the atheists, here's the deal--I agree with you. Lots of Christians check their brains at the door of their church, their television set, the blogs they read. Of course, so do non-Christians.
There are a lot of really stupid (and wicked) things done in the name of religion.
There is a difference between the natural realm and the spiritual realm. If you are living in the natural and finding your source of wisdom there, then the spiritual realm and its wisdom will be foreign. And vice versa.
Although I hope you'll read this with an open mind, I'm not so naive as to count on it. What you need to understand, apart from all the other malarky that's out there is this: most sincere, rational believers in Christ have had a spiritual revelation of Him that has changed their lives.
An individual who goes to church on a regular basis may not have had that revelation or encounter. So, they spend their time "acting" like a Christian.
When you've met Christ spiritually, you don't have to act like a Christian...you're different. Not perfect. Not holier than thou. Not even completely sure how this new spiritual life is supposed to be lived out. Something has changed at a fundamental level in your personhood.
As that initial revelation deepens, then a true believer will mature in wisdom. Sort of like a marriage. It's a life-long learning process of knowing and loving.
So we all can present arguments all day long about the various aspects of this subject. It's a waste. Most of the believers I know have addressed the question of whether or not there is a God at a very serious and sober level at some point in their lives.
I don't know a heck of a lot of atheists. I do wonder, though, if they've ever in the greatest of sincerity, shouted or whispered to the heavens and said, "God, if you're real...then show me."
Josiejo at 1:02PM on Oct 31st 2007
37. Responding to Emelpe (2)
George (15) is correct. The Declaration of Independence is the FOUNDATION for our country. It is what gives our country its legitimacy.
If you are correct, then, that would mean our country was a "bastard" nation for 12 years.
The Constitution is the "structural framework" for our government, but, it essentially rests on the Declaration of Independence.
We recognize July 4, 1776 as the birth of our nation. While independence was declared by the "US Congress" on July 2, Congress adopted the Declaration of Independence on July 4.
For the next 12 years, we operated under the Articles of Confederation. In 1787, our "founding fathers" attempted to revise the AoC, realized too much needed to be changed, so they started from scratch and wrote the US Constitution.
ray at 1:03PM on Oct 31st 2007
38. Josiejo,
Couldn't of said it better myself. When the Lord is present in our lives we do change.. Our thoughts change our mouths certainly change and the way we feel about other people change.
Thanks. Rita
rita at 1:13PM on Oct 31st 2007
39. Thanks for a well written article
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Gary at 1:13PM on Oct 31st 2007
40. Reply to: 13. The issue is God's existance, and Dinesh is right on. You non-believers are stuck. If there is a God, then we should be able to acknowledge God in our country. (end)
God does not exist. Why "acknowledge" an Imaginary Friend?
D'Souza wrote, "America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source"
That does NOT make the United States a Christian nation.
Our constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land. Our government is officially prohibited from establishing an official religion, or passing laws that regulate religious belief.
Again, D'Sousa talks about debate. "Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens."
I don't know if the AOL moderators are going to let me reply, but the only Correct Answer is that Christianity was, and still is, a con game. All of the resurrection appearances are part of a Sales Pitch, trying to recruit new victims for a first-century End of the World cult, a cult where the victims were required to sell their homes (wouldn't need them after the world ends at the Second Coming, you see) and give Peter and the other apostles their money.
Yes, I'm having a problem with AOL. Either post my comments... or send me an e-mail that you're not going to, so I can take the issue up with AOL directly.
William Hays at 1:13PM on Oct 31st 2007
41. America is not a Faithful country in structure because we have forgotten what is important. The people are Faithful, but the ruling structure is not. This is a fundamental issue because it opens way to the inconsistency to what government should be to the people. For the people and of the people. The people are Christian/Jewish/Muslim and the government should be faithful also.
mincpa at 1:23PM on Oct 31st 2007
42. Responding to Joiejo (34)
Excellent post!
I can add the following:
Even if we all agreed that we were a "Christian" nation in 1776, I can not say that we still are.
Some of the other posters have asked about the non-Christians. They have been here from the beginning. Actually, the non-Christians were here first (the first immigrants, aka, "Native Americans" aka "Indians"), but, that is a different topic in itself.
I think the really important questions are:
(1) What are we TODAY? Not “what we were 2 centuries ago?"
(2) What SHOULD we be today?
We are a plural society. Get over it.
We all the right to be here and be involved. When we come to the table for discussion, each of us can bring ALL, and I mean 100%, of our values and ideals with us.
No one should have to check a part of their belief system at the door because others (atheists in particular) are offended.
(3) As we determine what we SHOULD be, who are we accountable to?
Who should we try to please? Just ourselves?
To what extent do we consider the nation that our grandchildren will inherit? To what extent do we consider the world that our grandchildren will have to face?
It is obvious that we will not please everyone in the world. We can not make everyone like us. We will not even please everyone in the USA!
ray at 1:26PM on Oct 31st 2007
43. Reply to: most sincere, rational believers in Christ have had a spiritual revelation of Him that has changed their lives...So we all can present arguments all day long about the various aspects of this subject. It's a waste. I don't know a heck of a lot of atheists. I do wonder, though, if they've ever in the greatest of sincerity, shouted or whispered to the heavens and said, "God, if you're real...then show me." (end)
And the simple answer is, You're the victim of a Con Game.
The Con Game has brainwashed you into thinking God has revealed himself to you.
But there is no God. God does not exist.
We know where this idea of God comes from. Every human being started life as an infant. Literally, for years, they stored memories and impressions of their parents and other "big people" before they were able to attach the appropriate labels.
Christianity have developed various ways to access those memories from the very first years of life. They might say, "You know there's something out there. Be very quiet and you can feel it." Yes, you can. But what you are feeling is simply the emotions and memories of your own parents, before you were old enough to understand what was going on.
Or, they might say, "God loves you." And if you think about your own memories of being loved, the oldest and most obscure date back to the very first time you were picked up and heard a lullaby.
Jesus said, "Call no man on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."
What title do Catholic priests use? "Father."
Because they (quite openly) want you to associate the Catholic Church with your own Father, the subconscious memories of your Father.
Let's look at the book of Job in the OT:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of 'el came to present themselves before the YHWH, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
In the King James Version, the word YHWH is translated as LORD, in all caps. Not sure one version is more confusing than the rest, so I gave both.
God is YOUR father. God is based on the subconscious memories of your father.
You said, "most sincere, rational believers in Christ have had a spiritual revelation of Him that has changed their lives."
I agree. But the "revelation" did not come from OUTSIDE your brain. It was already there. You already have the emotions of being totally helpless and totally dependent on a Great Power that gives you food and unconditional love. Your parents.
The con game... is trying to confuse the issue by saying "Catholic priests" are "fathers."
William Hays at 1:27PM on Oct 31st 2007
44. S@IT, D, none of this in the past million articles have a d@@n thing to do with what is happening in the US of Bush, at this moment.
I could give a flying F$#K about nasty, lowdown abusive Atheists, who according to them, are so in touch with scientific explaination's of why any religion is FU, and if science is a dominate trait of Atheism, why do they act like digusting, Facist's, that act like BushCo and got their basis of the definition of Atheism from wikipedia. Atheists on CommonDreams or Alternet act like civilized, politically concerned humane human's, not like these AOL imbeciles.
The Christofacists, wingnuts and neocon's are just as horrid, they are never pacific in posts, they present themselves as so anti-WWJD people, that were drop-outs by 5th grade. They always use the CAPS lock and spell like 2 yr olds and say despicable, deplorable, Un-Christian like comments.
this site is dedicated to MY WAY or the HIGHWAY.
I am happy as a pig in s@@t to be a member, organizer or a part of THE TOP 10 MOST DANGEROUS GROUPS, in America. It is a compliment considering the source that compiled the inane list.
#2 on that list is 'Colleges and Universities', most of you, regardles of being an atheist, christian, buddhist, wiccan, jew, muslim, or damn sun worshiper, most certainly agree with #2 on the list.
You all are certainly not doing a F@@KING thing @ what is happening to the country or world. So all of your FU rhetoric and animosity towards one another better start paying attention because real soon, your apathetic asses are not going to even have the privelege to speak, freely, any way. WAKE UP!!!!! don't belive me just go to Thomas.gov and see what bills and resolutions the House and Senate have or are on their way to passing, it certainly isn't SCHIP.
All of your words now on sites like these are being trolled and you are being put on the list. Get arrested for peacefully protesting any of your beliefs, ANY, and try to get across the border into Canada, you will be detained, you will be turned back and not let back in for about for about 5 years. Doubt me? Try it. Especially Atheist's with their test everything any MF says because there is no data behind it. Google Medea include member of CODEPINK when you google Medea or Col.Wright, 30 year veteran of the military, resigned due to oppostion to war in IRAQ, you will see documentation.
So STFU and DO SOMETHING!
rhodalee at 1:31PM on Oct 31st 2007
45. Lots of grammatical errors, SB doiminant, and so forth, doesn't matter anyway. I do not Fu%%ing care.
rhodalee at 1:34PM on Oct 31st 2007