Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 13)
46. Sir... A Christian is somebody who believes in Christ (Christ was a Jew - Jews believe in him too)..and follow his teachings (most notably to love our neighbor as ourselves)...Hard to do... however, Christ himself... taught morals.. and freedom... You don't have to be a Christian to live in this country...or be a citizen...however, you are free to choose between right and wrong... Not forced to choose right and wrong... Some religions force their people to pray..or they declare them haratics and bring the rath of the people on them.. so that they will even kill them for having a different opinion... Christians allow people to choose... not to be forced... ofcourse if the people of the U.S. break the law... there is a punishment... if caught... and convicted...
As far as the Constitution goes... The supreme law of the land... we are all bound by it's wording... We declare we will follow this when we say the pledge of allegence... As far as the bible goes... It is true... as far as it is translated correctly..
Steve D at 12:27PM on Nov 2nd 2007
47. @ Stephanie... 11...
Saying something IS so.... does not make it so.
And telling people to leave, if they don't like it, is silly.
Where would atheists go... in your scenario... burned at the stake, perhaps?
@ ken holtz... 13
Changing the issue by declaring it to be "God's existance" is a cheap trick... enlisting all theists as 'extras'.
You say, "Religous people have a moral compass.."
Well, you and DD must have misplaced your moral compasses because implying that all God-believers are Christian because all Christians are God-believers is disingenuous.
@ Rita ... 14
You started off nice and neutral and slid right over to DD's side without really addressing the topic.
The question seems to be, "Do you think that believers in a CREATOR are necessarilly Christians?"
Can you seriously paint all historical believers in a CREATOR as Christians simply to promote your own Christian agenda?
If you CAN, then where is your reknowned 'God-given moral compass'?
pboyfloyd at 1:40PM on Oct 31st 2007
48. rhodalee:43. "Lots of grammatical errors, SB doiminant, and so forth, doesn't matter anyway. I do not Fu%%ing care."
------------------------
Thanks for adding nothing to the debate at hand on this board. You have managed to maintain zero credibility with your ridiculous diatribe.
Linda at 1:40PM on Oct 31st 2007
49. Mr. Hays,
Need to research your opinions before grouping all Christians into one category. I don't go through any priest, I go straight to the top. I figure if Jesus loved me enough to die for me, then the very least I can do is stand up for him. Not an imaginary figure but a supreme being that finely gave up on trying to get us to live by his laws so, he came to this earth, taught on this earth (by the way which he created) and then died so each of us could accept or reject him. I choose as well as millions to accept him as my personal saviour and my heavenly father. Not what my parents taught me but, I as an adult decided. If that were true then I believe there certainly would be a more Christian Country than we are now.
Rita
Rita at 1:46PM on Oct 31st 2007
50. First of all most of you don't understand the checks and balances system... If you did you would understand that you have been duped by the democrats into thinking that George Bush is a dummy.. and a bad guy... He is defending the free world... Freedom is not free.. it is his office who is in charge of that... Mothers who have lost their sons and others are trying to say we don't need to put our sons in harms way... We have Iraq.. we have Afghanistan... we have a war on terrorism... we have Korea.... IRAn... China.. and Russia.. as well as others who are intersted in their own ideas coming out... we need to implement our positions to keep people from coming to America and blowing up our buildings and killing our citizens... If it means that we have to go to war to keep that from happening.. I am all for it... And you should be too.. Freedom is what the country founders were all about... and that is the greatest thing we enjoy and the reasons for all the people coming here to this melting pot of ideas.. As far as Jesus Christ... He is not God...he is the God who created this earth...under the direction of his Father (our Father in Heaven... also the father of our spirits)... No wonder people are confused when Christians think that Jesus Christ praid to himself.. Any way... Christians do have freedom as does every other religion thanks to the constition of the U.S. Now religions such as Muslims have forced prayers... (that is if the Muslim peoople don't pray at the same time everyday in a group... they are considered a heritic... and the will of their fellow brothers are brought against them and they are banned or killed... which makes the others pray on command..)... That is not freedom.. that is forced.. The USA is not forced to do anything..
They declare a pledge of allegence to honor obey and sustain the law... the law is the Constitution... and it is the supreme law and defended by the President of the United States... so get off of his back and stop being sheep.
Steve D at 4:39PM on Nov 4th 2007
51. response to Ken Holtz #13 - morality does not come from religion! you do not have to be religious to be moral and many very religious and faith based people are highly immoral (i.e. Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc...) if you read your Bible you will see that Jesus preaches morality by talking about the good samartian which was thousands of years before Christianity.
response to Rita #14- if you read those same 4th and 5th grade books you will see that the first settlement of this great nation was JAMESTOWN not PLYMOUTH! also if you know any history you would know that the pilgrims and other religious fundamentalists like them were the most intolerant people. they didn't want just freedom of religion (they already had that in England and Holland) they wanted to live in a society with ONLY their religious views! that is a big difference..
Ross at 2:22PM on Oct 31st 2007
52. Stupid liberal is as stupid liberal does.
America could not have been invented before Protestant Christianity came along. Period.
The truth is America stands on the shoulders of all those who hungered and thirsted for liberty for all those long millenia since antiquity.
Could there be an America now if not for the inspiration of Spartacus, just for one example? I fear not.
Everyone who loves liberty has a stake in America. All the phony balony lying liberal scuzzbags have no place whatsoever in America because they hate the central idea of America, which is that our Creator endowed us with our sacred inalienable rights. Liberals think THEY control what rights we have, if any.
They will go to hell.
James Solbakken at 2:21PM on Oct 31st 2007
53. William Hays-
The problem with your "already present" revelation theory is that not all believers experienced that unconditional love as infants. In fact, in the ministry that I'm involved in I encounter people all the time who experience God's love in a very real way yet have deep woundedness regarding their own parents.
Again, I think you are trying to explain spiritual realm principles/occurrences using natural realm logic. They are two different realms and we're designed to exist in both.
By the way...agree 100% with you about the Catholic practice of calling priests Father. I also have a real problem with calling the Pope "Holy Father."
Josiejo at 2:17PM on Oct 31st 2007
54. @ 46... Rita (any Christian really)
You say, "..my personal saviour and my heavenly father...
This is one of the things that bother me... the 'heavenly' part... is that just word-play?
I imagine 'heaven' as 'sky'... I believe that the ancients considered the 'heavens' as the 'skies'.
We KNOW that the Earth is in orbit around the sun which is in orbit around the centre of the Milky Way... we KNOW now that we are, in fact "in the heavens".
Is this 'heavenly father' simply a nod back to the ancients who believed strange things about the sky... that the constellations might be some kind of code writ large by GOD?
Most Christians these days would also say that GOD, or certainly Jesus, was 'in their heart' too!!!
To me, this is compartmentalized thinking.. that God and Jesus can be up in the sky(heaven) AND in each of your hearts at the same time.
Do you take turns describing either one as figurative or 'a figure of speech', playing mental ping-pong with these ways of thinking about it?
If you do, then couldn't GOD and Jesus possibly be figurative or 'figures of speech' too?
pboyfloyd at 2:33PM on Oct 31st 2007
55. Another poster (Josiejo) wrote: 47. William Hays-
The problem with your "already present" revelation theory is that not all believers experienced that unconditional love as infants. (end)
Really? If true, that would surprise me. Because newborns are totally helpless, and if no one feeds and loves them, they never grow up.
I think you're confused. I think you could go to a hospital and look at some newborns, and the Correct Answer would instantly become obvious. What kind of conditions do parents set on their love for newborn children?
Josiejo wrote: In fact, in the ministry that I'm involved in I encounter people all the time who experience God's love in a very real way yet have deep woundedness regarding their own parents. (end)
0 for 2.
Have you read the Old Testament? Any passages that remind you of a child who had "deep woundedness regarding their own parents"? Try Job again:
27:1 Job said, "God has taken away my justice, and the Almighty has made my soul bitter. As long as my breath is in me, my lips will not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit." (ch 31) "What is the allotment of God from above, and the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? Is it not destruction for the wicked and disaster for the workers of iniguity?"
Want to make an educated guess about the author's relationship with HIS father?
Josiejo: I think you are trying to explain spiritual realm principles/occurrences using natural realm logic. They are two different realms and we're designed to exist in both. (end)
And if you weren't a gullible victim of a silly con game, you would be able to recognize the Correct Answer when you read it. Instead of giving me this nonsense about "spiritual realm principles."
The experience of God comes from inside your brain and the subconscious memories of your parents.
when D'Souza talks about God in his books and blogs, take notes. You'll see EXACTLY what I'm talking about. it's always there. Open your eyes and you'll see it, too.
William Hays at 2:39PM on Oct 31st 2007
56. Ross,
I now realize we went to different schools together! I believe the topic was "Are We A Christian Nation" The answer any way you want to look at it is yes we are. If you look at America's history you will see that we are always to first to help in times of crisis. We are a mismas of different people who came from all over the world in order to worship the LORD (in the way we as a Christian nation view the LORD) my view is my view and you are intitled to yours. However, when 911 happen who did you hear everyone going to? Even the news media along with the rest of us turned to a higher power (in my case God). Sir, freedom and Christian principals go hand in hand. Always have, and always will. That is something no one can change because, we are Americans. Rita
rita at 2:55PM on Oct 31st 2007
57. When the founding fathers of this country were creating the constitution, I'm sure they were trying to get away from all of the faults that plagued the European governments of the time. One of the biggest fault in europe at that time was that the catholics and protestants had been slaughtering each other for over two hundred years!!
J B Smith at 3:05PM on Oct 31st 2007
58. pboyfloyd,
Ok let's go thru this one more time. My heavenly father resides in heaven. If, you read the Bible you will find that there are three heavens. You only are able to see one. Who do you think put that one out there full of beauty and wonderment? If not GOD then there must have been one heck of an interior decorator. In order to have a relation with GOD you have to seek him out. He is in heaven that is why he left the HOLY SPIRIT here to fill and gives us answers to questions that a few of people are having a problem with. There is no mystery here and his word is as true today as it was ages ago. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. One day regardless of who we are and who we choose to believe in we will have to answer to Him. Can't give you any more help than that. That's the truth, the whole truth and nothing less. I know this in my heart as well as in my head, as well as I know that the United States of America was founded on Christian principles and we will continue until such a time that there is no more. Hope that answers all questions for you. Take Care, Rita
rita at 2:56PM on Oct 31st 2007
59. @ Rita ..53
Your style of thinking seems to explain the Muslims dancing in the streets when they understood what happened on 9/11 too, though... doesn't it?
pboyfloyd at 2:55PM on Oct 31st 2007
60. Get a job (i.e. Make it a large slurpee, Apuu!).
Chris at 3:04PM on Oct 31st 2007