Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 5 of 13)
61. This is not a Christian Nation. This is a democratic nation.
Religion and democracy, are diferent entities,represent diferent values.Religion by its nature,is an absolute value.God in dermocracy, is the will of the people.
Calado 1o-31- 2pm
mbcalado at 3:04PM on Oct 31st 2007
62. Rita,
I do understand where you are coming from, and appreciate that your tone doesn't become decidedly abbrasive like many. You do, however, understand that it is a giant leap of faith to say "God wrote through" these men. If he wanted his words preserved, why not make a better effort to prevent all the mistranslations and errors that plague our current editions? If you research back to the oldest surviving copies of the new test., you will find that they are hundreds of years later than the death of Jesus, and are COPIES of the originals. In other words, the originals DO NOT survive. Many key passages, such as the first verse of John (the only verse in the bible that explicitly establishes the idea of the "trinity") has been PROVEN to have been written by someone OTHER THAN the author of the gospel of John. This is so because it was NOT in any of the oldest surviving copies, and was found to have been written in the margin of a later copy by a scribe. Also, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were NOT written by "eyewitnesses," in other words, NOT written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but rather by people who survived them and had been told their stories verbally. In fact, it is a well accepted fact that their was an original gospel that was copied by the other authors, thus giving the seeming congruity we see today. I come from a place very different from most who don't believe. I can reasonably say I know scripture better than most who call themselves Christians. And it doesn't add up against the evidence, and the TRUTH. At least not to me.
Rod at 3:01PM on Oct 31st 2007
63. Rita,
You think the Pilgrams came here for religious freedom, as you said more than once, that shows that you do not understand history. The Pilgrams were free to practice their religion in England they just had to pay taxes on their church. They then moved to Holland where they could do whatever they wanted but thought the Dutch were "too tolerant" and then decided to come to America because they didn't have to be around any other religions or people that were differnt than them.
Ross at 3:02PM on Oct 31st 2007
64. Why do you equate God with religeon?
God would exist just fine without religeon, but religeon would not exist without God. Religeon is the root of the problem, Not God
J B Smith at 3:13PM on Oct 31st 2007
65. Carnegie told Mark Twain that the US is a "Christain Nation". Twain told Carniegie that "Hell is also a Christian Nation".....
RobertMN at 3:16PM on Oct 31st 2007
66. Another poster (Rita) wrote: "In order to have a relation with GOD you have to seek him out. He is in heaven that is why he left the HOLY SPIRIT.... He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. One day regardless of who we are and who we choose to believe in we will have to answer to Him. (end)
Interesting opinion, but it doesn't seem to describe anything in the real world.
Children invent Imaginary Friends. These Imaginary Friends speak and behave in any way you want them to.
In Christianity, you are asked to substitute THEIR Imaginary Friend for your own.
People who have suffered, who feel they have been given the short end of the stick.... may seek Justice.
Ultimate justice... at a Day of Divine Judgment
"One day regardless of who we are... we will have to answer to Him."
Don't you realize what kind of a person invented that story?
A Jew who saw his relatives taken away to Babylon as slaves.... A Temple priest who watched Titus come in with a Legion of Roman soldiers and tear apart every stone in the Temple, searching for melted gold.... A Galilean fisherman who watched his friend die a terrible death by Crucifixion...
Mark 14: But Peter followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. Peter sat with the servants and warmed himself at the fire.... Those who stood next to Peter said, "Surely you are one of them. YOu are a Galilean and your speech shows." But Peter began to curse and swear, "I do not know this man of whom you speak."
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that Peter had actually witnessed Jesus performing miracles like bring Lazarus back to life. But we understand why Peter invented resurrection appearances. Paul was sent to arrest Christians, and Peter said, "I'm not going to allow another one of my friends die a horrible death." So he told Paul that 500 people had seen a resurrected Jesus... and Paul believed him.
It's a con game. It was always a con game.
William Hays at 3:18PM on Oct 31st 2007
67. sorry for spelling RELIGION RELIGEON
J B Smith at 3:19PM on Oct 31st 2007
68. thank God we have a good christian man as president!
(SARCASM)!!!!!!
stuart joshua at 3:22PM on Oct 31st 2007
69. The United States is a Constitutional Republic. Iran is a religious nation.
RobertMN at 3:23PM on Oct 31st 2007
70. The men who challenged the insane King George III
for America's sovereignty were primarily Masons &
Shriners who prided themselves on being privy to an
"Enlightened" perspective not endowed to the mass-
es!While there may have been a belief in the reali-
ty of God,there was the accompanying practice of ne
ver choosing one denomination over another!The re-
sult was a penchant for supporting all churches w/
financial contributions,but not committing to being
a member of either!There was also the practice of
always having a non-conspicuous or secret Mason/
Shriner infiltrate congregations for basic purposes
of intelligence!Religious institutions were rightly
perceived to be the artificial constructs of men de
siring to exercise control over large groups of in-
dividuals!Religious hypocrisies & spiritual bank-
ruptcies flourished under the auspices of The First
Admendment prohibition against religious restraint,
oppression,& state-establishment!There isn't any-
thing that evidences the religious hypocrisies &
spiritual bankruptcies more than the monstrosity of
Chattel Slavery w/its barbaric brutalties,cruelties
& inhumanities as those imposed upon Peoples of A-
frican descent!Via the auspices of the gun in one
hand & the Bible in the other,Caucasians have been
able to propagate & establish Christianity as an ac
cepted social institution,where believers are indoc
trinated to expect "The Second-Coming" of "The Sa-
vior" who was denied,vilified,& crucified the first
time He came by the very people who purportedly had
the responsibility of teaching the masses of His
first-coming!Jesus The Christ did NOT form any kind
of religious institution called Christianity,so did
He preach Christianity or "Deism"?If He was a so-
called "Jew" & they are the so-called "Chosen Peo-
ple" w/the corresponding "Chosen Religion",why did-
n't He preach "Judaism" or did He?Why would Saul,a
so-called "Jew" w/the so-called "Monotheistic" cho-
sen religion of "Judaism" as his base become Paul &
teach "God in Three Persons" or a polytheism?Why is
it believed that Jesus The Christ had to teach any-
thing other than "I am come to die for your sins"?
I mean,do any teachings exempt us from being sinn-
ers?And,why are we continually condemned as such if
the ultimate price has already been paid for what
is said to be our natural state?How does one over-
come one's Nature?Will a second-coming change our
Nature?What happens if "God in Three Persons" has a
disagreement about an individual life?I mean,could
Judas do anything other than what he was born to do
by his very nature?And,if he was locked in or con-
demned by his very nature,how can he be rightly con
demned for doing & being exactly what he was born to do & to be by the very God who created him for
this purpose since someone had to play the role of
the betrayer,like Jesus The Christ had to play the
role of "The Messiah" or "The Savior of Mankind"
who would NOT be accepted as such although He was
predicted to be coming?Whether Amerikkka is a Chris
tian Nation or not is irrevelant!The question more
important to reality is what kind of People inhabit
the country,no matter what their religious con-
structs might be or not?!?!To be sure,being a so-
called Christian Nation has NOT prevented the same
kinds of socio-economic-political-religious shenani
gans that gave rise to the invasion of North Ameri-
ca by Europeans in the first place!The oppression of men,women,& children for ANY reason is inhumane!
Dinesh D'souza is ignorant of Amerikkkan history &
it shows!
Free312 at 3:30PM on Oct 31st 2007
71. Rod,
Let's examine that giant leaf of faith, if this book is fiction why is still on top of the best selling list after all these years? You can find GOD all around you! A true Christian is not abrasive or does not tell you that you should believe one way or the other. That is not the way that Chistian believe and anyone who takes that attitude (believe me is not Christian). God is the judge, not ME, all I know is what I have learned by reading and studing the Bible and I know that I have someone who loves me,not because I'm special but, because HE who died for us loved us enough to take punishment for our sins and he still loves us today. I know that whenever I have had a very bad day (Christians are not immume to having bad days) that I can go to him in my heart and my head a talk to him and I know he cares and although he ways are not our ways, he always knows the answer for us even if it is sometimes NO. I see him in the earth's existentence, my children's eyes, my old neighbor's quality of life, He is everywhere. Just a thought, seek and you shall find him. Try it, you just might like it. Rita
rita at 3:30PM on Oct 31st 2007
72. Is America a Christian Nation?
No: clearly it is a Hindu nation.
Fitz at 3:53PM on Oct 31st 2007
73. This guy D is a pretty robust example of someone who's feeding on his own delusion.
He creates straw men, does battle with them, congratulates himself on another galumphing victory, his sycophants cheer and that's pretty much it from what I've read so far.
He's completely out of his element when talking about history or politics or science and has to fill in what he's essentially cherry-picked with obvious projection.
His followers are none the wiser, though and he takes max advantage of this.
I don't know about anyone else but I won't sit still for face to face conversations like what he writes.
If you want convincing examples of the decline in intellect that is the most desirable state of the middle and lower classes in classic conservative dogma per Burke et al in Adams' time clear on up to Kirk in the fifties, look no further than the author of this blog and his followers.
His followers appear to me to be very good examples of what Abe Lincoln was talking about when he said you can fool some of the people all of the time.
I'm NO advocate of eugenics which I abhor and associate with naziism, but I do believe that in the US for a long time now dumb people have been having more children than smart ones and we may now be experiencing the onset of a cumulative effect.
We've fallen in standing compared to other nations in about every category associated with intelligence.
Also, dumb people tend to be more easily taken in by magick, superstition and fundamentalist religious dogma, which will make them more bigoted and more asocial.
They are unfortunately the fodder of unscrupulous and power-hungry christian reconstructionalist and fundamentalist type evangelism.
Ideation like Darbyism or dominionism are not only extremely dangerous, I believe they are signs of pathological dissociation and diminished mental capacity.
How many times has Pat Robertson advocated the violent overthrowl of the United States government, for example?
Anyone know about the Westboro Baptist church and Fred and Leona Phelps? Ever heard 'em talk? OK, babble, but have you ever heard it?
I think it's true that exposure to fundamentalist ideation at an early age will result in irreparable damage to the behavior that is essential for amicable social interaction.
This is true of both christianity and islam, but the christians only see it in islam and vice versa.
I wouldn't begin to classify ALL followers of abrahamic religions in this category, but if for example it makes sense to you that God should rule America and that the kingdom of God is not a democracy, and you ACT on that, then you are an enemy of democracy and a seditious person per se. You're trying to overthrow the established government of the United States.
Also statistically, although christians are in a majority in the US, EVANGELICAL christians are in a distinct minority, about 7-12%.
How many of these are Darbyists or dominionists, I don't know but I'd guess most of them.
Some of the first entries on this subject were very very impressive to read!
The one demanding support in scripture for the elements of our constitutional government from those who say this is a Christian-inspired nation is remarkable in its elegance. (the doge’s challenge)
I don't use the term 'elegance' lightly, either. I mean it the way a research scientist would mean it. Great post!
If there's a LOGICAL refutation of that post, bring it on!!
As long as we have clear thinking people like that, there's hope.
Those of you who follow your bigotry, your hatred and your prejudice and think you're doing it in Jesus' or whoever's name because some preacher told you so are letting some power hungry greedy human being, not a god be your master in this life.
If at some time you object to this absolute authority over what should be your personal business, who ya gonna call?
Jesus and God both APPROVE of slavery!
**
As a postscript, identifying the catcher on the Stimpity and Ren show as some spokesman for progressive thought is nuts.
I'm stuck with that lightweight every night until midnight if I want to hear a radio forum. He gets people like D's advocates you read here calling in more than anything and he's usually less than clever in dealing with them.
He belongs on Fox as far as I'm concerned - he's more their type.
Clif Kuplen at 3:46PM on Oct 31st 2007
74. @ Rita .... 55
You say, "My heavenly father resides in heaven."
But Rita... you have to redefine the word 'reside' and the meaning of the word 'place'.
To reside..
make one's home in a particular place or community; "may parents reside in Florida"
occupy: live (in a certain place)
rest: be inherent or innate in;
Now that dictionary has given God an 'in'... with the last meaning... as far as 'reside'... but it is a 'made up' meaning specifically to give God an 'in'.
Christians have to do this doublethink with many words... e.g. 'exist' implies 'being' somewhere specific at some specific time.
I exist... because I'm here, now. You exist because you are where you are at, there, now.
As far as 'place'... Let's take Pluto for an example. We could send a space-ship to Pluto which would attach itself to the surface and coax Pluto into an orbit that would force it to crash into Jupiter, or Uranus. Pluto would no longer be a 'place'.
Are your three heavens 'places' ... we can observe only one heaven, as you pointed out... the visible universe but these other two ... are they just 'figurative' or 'figures of speech'?
If you can say that God resides in Heaven yet imagine Heaven as a placeless place... this is STILL compartmentalized thinking.
Thanks, in advance for your ongoing patience.
pboyfloyd at 3:54PM on Oct 31st 2007
75. Saying America is a "Christian nation" is merely pinting out the obvious; that the majority of Americans are Christians.
Egypt and Saudia Arabia are not Christian nations, and neither is India, China, Tibet or Japan for that matter. The reason they are not called Chrsitian nations is that the majority of the people in these nations are not Christian. They are however (respectively); Islamic, Hindu and Budhist nations.
And so what then, is the big deal?
Ken Berg at 3:57PM on Oct 31st 2007