Commentators like Alan Colmes put on a very constipated expression when they encounter the idea that America is a Christian nation. How else to explain Colmes' attempt to convince me that the founders were Deists? Actually I went on the Fox News Channel's Hannity & Colmes last night expecting to debate Christopher Hitchens. I was looking forward to informing Hitchens off the air that my book What's So Great About Christianity is outselling God Is Not Great even in the "Atheism" category on amazon.com. Alas, Hitchens was on a plane somewhere and didn't make it to the studio. So I had to make do with battling a much less adept opponent in Colmes.
The problem is that I don't think Colmes knows what a Diest is.
He seems to think that Deism is the eighteenth-century term for atheism. Deists, however, believe in a transcendent God who created the universe. In this sense Deists are by definition theists. Where Deists differ from Christians is that they believe that, having set the universe into motion, God goes on permanent vacation. The Deist God is akin to Aristotle's "first mover."
The vast majority of the American founders were not Deists but rather practicing Christians. As I pointed out on the show, even Benjamin Franklin could not be comfortably fitted into the Deist category. Franklin after all called for prayers to save the new country. Clearly he believed that God is solicitous of His Creatures and that prayers could be heard and answered. This isn't Deism.
Jefferson was the most irreverent of the founders, and he rejected the divinity of Christ and the miracles. Colmes seemed fascinated by Jefferson's habit of cutting out passages in the Bible he didn't approve of, a strategy that liberal judges seem to employ when dealing with the U.S. Constitution. Even Jefferson, though, gave as the source of our inalienable rights none other than the Creator. To translate for the benefit of atheists who have trouble understanding simple English: God is the source of all our rights. Not the Enlightenment. Not social contract theory. Not Voltaire's parlor ramblings. Startling though it may seem, America is based on "divine right," not the divine right of kings but a divine source of political authority extended from the one (the monarch) to the many (the people).
So America is not a Christian nation in that this country is not a theocracy, nor do Christians seek to make it one. America is, however, a Christian nation in that it was founded by Christians who recognized that its most fundamental principles derive exclusively from a transcendent source. Atheists may fret and fume over this, but that's the way it is.
Reader Comments ( Page 7 of 13)
91. RobertMN,
Why, not who? What would have to be a nothing. Sorry, can't believe I'm here for no apparent reason. There are reasons for everything that is here on this earth and out in the heavens. GOD created the earth and the heaven's. Sorry, if you don't believe, just as we a One Nation Under God, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice For All.
rita
rita at 5:01PM on Oct 31st 2007
92. US a Judeo-Christian nation? If the words of the Founding Fathers (FF) make it doubtful that America was founded as a Christian nation, then take a look at the words of one FF, Benjamin Franklyn, which leave no doubt that he did not want America to be a Jewish nation or even to admit jews in it. Just think about it, next time you decide to propose that people are kicked out of the US because of their religion.
Piru at 5:09PM on Oct 31st 2007
93.
For emelpe
The Declaration of Independence was a foundational document in that it was the original statement as reason for the new nation to be created out from the old ownership of England. The constitution is merely the formulation of the Government created to implement those values as set forth in the Declaration of Independence. ( A means to an End so to speak).
Kman at 5:08PM on Oct 31st 2007
94. Dinesh!!! Thank you for defending and speaking the truth even when the haters insult you. I believe the atheists worldview is the biggest threat to this nation. The USA was founded on Judea-Christian principals, that we have certian rights endowed by our Creator, if these rights were from people, then people could take them away. Since they are from God our Creator then no person can take them away. Guess what athiests, we Christians do not want a National Church of America telling everyone what to believe and how to worship. Along the same lines we do not want godless people telling us what to believe and how to worship. Freedom of religious expression means just that, it does not mean freedom from Christianity and the Bible in all public life. For hundreds of years in American public schools there was school lead prayer and Bible reading. Now our public schools are horrible, and why? because students are taught no absolute values and morality. It is absolutly wrong to bring a gun into a school and murder another student. But athiests determine their own morailty and do not believe we exsist for a purpose.
Jeremiah at 1:49PM on Nov 12th 2007
95. Please don't feel sorry for me, Rita. Faith is a personal thing and I respect yours for you. Do not, though, attempt to be so arrogant as to dismiss other beliefs for other people. You see God as a reflection of yourself---a "person"---a "who" rather than a "what"...good for you. Some of us spell "Nature" with a capital "N". These are serious questions we all ask ourselves---you and your Evangelical Fundamentalists do NOT have the answer any more than do the humanists. So, while we realize4 that the latest in the right wing "Christian" belief is to ignore tolerance (since YOU are right and everybody else in the world is wrong) it is time for y'all to revisit the world of tolerance and leave other people's religious beliefs alone!
RobertMN at 5:12PM on Oct 31st 2007
96. @ Rita ...85
First, I'd like to thank my little helpers. If I were 'going somewhere' with this... well, you'd be like a 'funny' guy in a cafe, sticking his foot out while I'm carefully taking my lunch-tray to the table now... wouldn't you?
Rita asked, "Where did it come from?"
Well, we don't know, do we? You think that you know, muslims think that they know, hindus think that they know... and the scientific model to date is the Big Bang Theory.(but 'they' don't know 'why' that might have happened either, now do they?)
Why do you pick some tribal wargod as the 'one true god' over all the other gods that were available at the time of HIS creation(Moses creating Yahweh, that is)?
pboyfloyd at 5:12PM on Oct 31st 2007
97. pboy,
Why the change of attitude? I was just asking the fundamental questions. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I am not questioning my beliefs, or yours but, now that you mention Moses, do you know he was one of my favorite Old Testament people. What would the chances be that while the King was busily killing all babies that his own sister would pick up this baby from a basket and make his own mother the babies'nurse and then he would grow up to lead God's Chosen people out of Egypt. Stranger still, because of their unbelief he gave the Gentiles (that be me and you) the same deal. Can't figure how all that came about but, sounds like a miracle to me. Love in the Lord, Rita
rita at 5:38PM on Oct 31st 2007
98. Tem #78:
That's a great question. The answer is "yes" and "no". Yes, I've been exposed to other gods. I've examined other belief systems. But no, I've never said, "Allah, if you're real, show me."
I have, however, had a very real spiritual encounter with Jesus Christ that absolutely changed my life 180 or 360 (I never know how to write that!) degrees.
Hays--I don't mean to sound disrespectful to you...but its naive to believe that every child is wanted and that every infant child experiences enough unconditional love to be able to draw from that experience an ability and willingness to believe in an all powerful, all loving God.
You have some good points, though.
Josiejo at 5:23PM on Oct 31st 2007
99. DD's definition of Deists verus Christianity is correct. By this definition, our founders were Christians. In fact, Benjamin Franklin was born again and baptized in a church in Boston that is now referred to as the Old South Meeting Place and is a landmark on the Freedom Trail. To my regret, I do not know the exact name of the church.
Sry at 5:59PM on Oct 31st 2007
100. pboy,
Ya know Moses was one of my favorite person in the Old Testament. What would be the changes of a mother putting her son in a basket,at the time a king was killing all male infants, then his own sister finding this baby and making his own mother his nurse and then he growing up to lead the Jews out of Egypt, only to not be accepted, gave up his own Son which was part of him to die on a cross so that we The Gentiles (that would be you and me)to be able to become part of that family, WOW What do think about all those chances?
Rita at 5:43PM on Oct 31st 2007
101. I seems to me the only angry ones here are the atheists. If they are happy with their beliefs, then why are they always so grumpy and/or touchy about everything?
Ken Berg at 5:41PM on Oct 31st 2007
102. pboy,
I sortof look at this backwards from how you are describing it. I think.
Rather than picking the judeo-christian god and then saying, "well if I believe in him then he must have created all this so let me look in the bible and see how he did it" I start with the question "where did it come from?" Well, to me it is obviously an intricate creation. If I dropped a toyota minivan onto an alien planet the aliens that said "this complex device is so clever it must have a creator, whoever/whatever that may be" would be correct.
So the next question is "who is the creator?" Well many people have come up with their interpretation, thus the various religions. You know the problem with god (the one we usually refer to here on this forum), that we can't prove or disprove him? that doesn't apply to all the religions. We know what the sun is, we know its not a god. Science has taught us that. We can show that a wood statue is not a god. Some gods can be disproven. So we can scratch those off the list pretty quick.
As we delve into cosmology and quantum physics science is going the other way, causing some to say they can discover the mind of god. Who knows. But science is not the enemy of the faith. The scientific model and a concept of a creator don't conflict. You can look at the scientific explanation of the origin of things and then look in the bible and say "oh here is where they reference the creation" and not have a problem.
bigTuna at 5:50PM on Oct 31st 2007
103. As far as I am concerned, the US is not a Christian nation, and never was. The percentages Dinesh is talking about come from what people say on polls and from the census. Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't make it so. I can paint a canary red and call it a cardinal, but it will still be a canary.
If a person claims to be a Christian, but never goes to church, lies, cheats on his spouse, steals from his employer, and generally ignores anything Jesus said a good follower shoudl do, then is he still a Christian? Christians will tell you "yes"...once saved, always saved. If this is true, then a "Christian" nation is no different in PRACTICE than a Muslim nation, a Hindu nation or an atheist nation. If Christians celebrate pagan holidays, then they might be Christian in THEORY, but they are PAGAN in practice. If they TALK a lot about doing good but never actually DO anything, this makes them the type of hypocrites that Jesus threw out of the temple. In other words, if all you do is talk the talk, but never bother to walk the walk, you might as well be a non-Christian since that is what you are in PRACTICE.
Phoenix at 6:04PM on Oct 31st 2007
104. Reply to: "Hays--Its naive to believe that every child is wanted and that every infant child experiences enough unconditional love to be able to draw from that experience an ability and willingness to believe in an all powerful, all loving God."
Let me try this again. (I'm going to give the SAME answer, so pay attention.) There is NO external "God" out there. You create a God out of something that exists INSIDE you.
I was just at a shopping mall. I read a magazine about Hollywood studio execs who spend enormous amounts on bespoke Armani suits. A few minutes later, I walked into a store. Not quite sure WHY... until I saw the name: Giorgio Armani.
Did my subconscious make a connection between the magazine article and the sign on the front of the store? Steven Pinker has written several books about the way the brain works...
Reply to: "an ability and willingness to believe in an all powerful, all loving God."
Not every child believes in such a God. Not every religion worships one. However, you used the term "all-powerful". Doesn't that describe the world that a 6 month-old infant sees around him? A world where everyone has power except him. (I'm tempted to go into toilet training as an example of an infant learning how to have power.)
Let's take another example. Is the God described by Rita the same as the God worshiped by cannibals in equatorial Africa?
Rita: "...if this book is fiction why is still on top of the best selling list after all these years? You can find GOD all around you!"
FYI: Fiction sells better than non-fiction. Robin Cook wrote a best-seller called "Coma" a few years ago, by reading the top ten best-selling thrillers and making notes on what scared him the most.
Christians don't want to give up an Imaginary Friend who loves them unconditionally. Why would they?
Rita: " A true Christian is not abrasive or does not tell you that you should believe one way or the other."
Wow. I'm not sure Rita has met many Christians.
But I think I know what her father was like.
Rita: That is not the way that Chistian believe and anyone who takes that attitude (believe me is not Christian).
Her father might be a teeny-tiny bit judgmental. What do you think?
Rita: I know that I have someone who loves me,not because I'm special but, because HE who died for us loved us enough to take punishment for our sins and he still loves us today. I know that whenever I have had a very bad day (Christians are not immume to having bad days) that I can go to him in my heart and my head and talk to him and I know he cares and although he ways are not our ways, he always knows the answer for us even if it is sometimes NO."
If the answer is sometimes NO, and you have no control over it, what good is he?
Let's talk about Imaginary Friends. What are the Most Valuable Qualities to look for in an Imaginary Friend?
"....whenever I have had a very bad day, I can go to him and talk to him and I know he cares..."
Sounds like Rita has had more than a few bad days, to be so happy about finding an Imaginary Friend who is always willing to listen.
Here's the bottom line:
Christians think the experience of God comes from some supernatural entity outside of themselves.
Atheists know that the experience of God comes from memories and physical processes... and that infants store very intense memories for several years of "loving parents" or "angry parents" or "all-powerful parents."
I'm always amused when a Christian writes down the attributes of their "God" and I'm able to compare it to their early infancy and childhood. Do it during a debate in front of an evangelical audience, and the audience will hate you.
William Hays at 5:58PM on Oct 31st 2007
105. I don't care what people say, there is a GOD and one day he will judge us. Be ready.
wesley at 6:05PM on Oct 31st 2007