Uh, no, it's rape. So says the bar association in a rare rebuke of a municipal judge. The judge ruled that a woman forced by a client to have sex with three other men at gunpoint should be considered just "a robbery." Salon.com's Broadsheet quotes the Chancellor of the Philadelphia Bar Association's condemnation of the decision: "Even though the woman is a prostitute, it doesn't mean she couldn't be a victim. Once she says 'No, it's not okay,' then to have sex with her is rape."
It's amazing the judge could have thought otherwise, but she even defended the decision later to the press. According to the original AP article:Municipal Judge Teresa Carr Deni heightened the furor when she defended her decision to a newspaper. ''She consented and she didn't get paid,'' Deni told the Philadelphia Daily News. ''I thought it was a robbery.''
Deni also told the newspaper that the case ''minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped.''
Some back-story on the case from the same article:The 20-year-old woman, a single mother, testified that she worked for an escort service that advertised through the Web site Craigslist.
She went to a North Philadelphia home Sept. 20 to meet Gindraw, who had agreed to pay her $150 for sex. He then said that a friend was coming with the money and that the friend would pay her another $100 to perform sex acts.
Instead, three other men arrived, and Gindraw pulled a gun and ordered the woman to have sex with all of them, she testified.
''He said that I'm going to do this for free, and I'm not going nowhere, and I better cooperate or he was going to kill me,'' she testified at a preliminary hearing.
The article also quotes Carol Tracy, executive director of the Philadelphia-based Women's Law Project, as saying the judge's comments that the case was just "theft of services" was ''a throwback to the Middle Ages, when rape was a crime against property, not against a person.''Seriously. The implication of the decision is that prostitutes are offered less protection under the law than other women. We're relieved to see that the bar association is on the case.
Reader Comments ( Page 5 of 10)
61. # 58, All sex outside of marriage is adultery? How can that be? Adultery is a married person having sex with someone other than his/her spouse. Also, I'm not so sure that someone who engages in prostitution is less clean than someone who doesn't. Although I don't know the statistics, believe me there are plenty of women (and men) who fool around for free without using protection.
April at 5:41PM on Nov 1st 2007
62. To krautknabe:
IDIOT!!! You shouldn't ever dis someone's opinion. Quite honestly, if a prostitute gets raped, then its still rape! Now don't get me wrong, I am entirely against whores, but that doesn't mean they should get their rights taken.
sydneygerb at 4:59PM on Nov 6th 2007
63. 50. In my opinion, considering that there is an open position at just about any local fast food chain, at the very least... that a woman would CHOOSE to prostitute herself is a plain fact of her immorality. She is as guilty as the men who robbed her services. I agree with the judges decision.
A woman that enters into agreements to have sex with another human being and is denied payment for her services is no different than a deli clerk that gets held up and robbed.
A woman, who for my point, is maybe a clerk or a lawyer or cashier, and is taken and forced to have sex at the threat of further physical violence is RAPED.
Basically, the prostitute put herself out there with a filthy element and set herself up for this type of abuse. I do not call it rape because had these men offered money in exchange she would have went home happy.
CM at 4:41PM on Nov 1st 2007
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Excuseme CM, and you would know about a human being....how????
I have read some pretty disgusting things on this blog, so far yours takes the cake.
RAPE has nothing to do with SEX. If this woman broke the law with her "profession" then charge her. As far as I'm concern the three pigs and the IDIOT JUDGE belong in JAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO is NO PERIOD!! Even if it's said by the town's whore!! No one person has the right to rape another human being!
Patty at 7:51PM on Nov 1st 2007
64. HAVE YOU PEOPLE LOST YOUR MINDS? For the individuals who consider rape at gunpoint on the par with selling sexual acts for money...take one monent and put yourself in the victim's highheels. Prostitution is at worst a crime of poverty.
The degenerates who raped her had a readymade victim. Maybe their next attempt would be against your daughter whom they felt owed them sex after an expensive date...it's not a far leap.
What has happened to our men... I thought men were supposed to protect women in our civilized society not condone the monsters who prey on the most vulnerable.
reason at 7:30PM on Nov 1st 2007
65. so, yes she consented to sex with one guy, but not three. the fact that she was not paid also implies something occured outside the agreed upon transaction. after that, who knows what happened.
jdawg at 7:15PM on Nov 1st 2007
66. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything about the law. I wonder if holding a gun on someone and forcing them to have sex with another is actually considered rape, or if that person would be an accomplice?
If said person would only be an accomplice then what the judge said would be legally correct I would assume. She did agree to have sex with him. Later he refused to pay. If he is only an accomplice it would seem to me that the other men would actually be the one's who raped her and rape charges should be filed against them. Perhaps the only fault would be that he was not being charged with being an accomplice to rape.
However, if one is just as guilty, legally speaking, of rape by holding a gun on someone and forcing them to have sex with another (even if they don't commit the sexual act themselves) then yes, he would be guilty of rape.
Just some thoughts I had while reading through the information.
lita at 7:17PM on Nov 1st 2007
67. As to the topic, she would be charged with prostitution and the men with aggravated rape, kidnaping, soliciting and whatever firearms charges they might tack on if the gun were a pistol and unregistered.
Federal law equates holding a hostage with kidnaping.
There is no theft since it's an unlawful product. It's similar to stealing crack or converted merchandise from a fence or a dealer.
As an additional bonus, if it were David Vitters, he would also get a standing ovation from his cronies in congress, presumably for at least being heterosexual albeit a scofflaw.
Another moral conundrum follows - what a complex world we live in!
"58. All sex outside of marriage is adultery. What does a wise Christian do to avoid the punishment due an adulterer--being cast into the Lake of Fire on Judgment Day?"
Hey, I know this one!!
Sex outside of marriage is only ok with your concubines or slaves.
You can buy a firstborn daughter from whoever wants to sell you one, but you have to keep her, unless you beat her to death slowly so it takes two days or more for her to die, but just payin' and runnin' might get you in hot water.
Now BE CAREFUL when you're beating her to death! If she loses an eye or a tooth while you're whupping up on her you gotta let her go. (Exodus 21)
Glad I was here to clear this up!
Clif Kuplen at 7:17PM on Nov 1st 2007
68. The judge is an IDIOT, she should have her jugeship revoked! Also, ban her from having anything to do with law! WHAT AN IDIOT!!! No wonder women are hesitant to come forward after being raped!
Joan at 7:37PM on Nov 1st 2007
69. Oh that is AWFUL!!! RAPE is RAPE! period! that judge is a bitch with serious issues...I suspect her husband/bf/father had been frolicking with prostitutes and she already developed a hatred for them...Detectives should investigate her personal life to determine if she is already biased and hence incapable of making an impartial judgment in this case.
Bella at 9:13PM on Nov 1st 2007
70. If she said "NO" then it's considered rape regardless of her profession!!! No ONE asks to be raped! Reason, i like your style! We need more men like you... you know... normal!
Joan at 7:47PM on Nov 1st 2007
71. I am a "dinner date" companion meaning that I post ads on the internet and meet the men and decide after seeing what they look like whether I will date them as I don't date ugly guys or slimy ones. I was born with a hearing problem and have a history of both child abuse and a 2 sexual assaults done in the biblebelt where the police made comments about my religion or that my lipstick was too red/wore too much perfume. I suffer from panic attacks and severe depression and many places in SC aren't hiring people with choppy employment backgrounds. (I quit work for 3 yrs to take care of mom's cancer till she died)
I went to the police a year ago to file domestic charges against a man who was in the process of becoming an officer and they found out that I had nude photos of me on the internet. They never returned any of my calls and ignored all pleas for help. This "wonderful" man lived off me and 3 other women while calling us whores. Being a whore is being a slut. At least I am not getting drunk at bars and giving it away. I am not on welfare and I keep my bills paid but if I get stabbed by a total stranger tommorrow, no one will stick up for me. Employment is hard for those who aren't born all white or rich.
stephanie at 7:50PM on Nov 1st 2007
72. So we have.... a Kraut. (Knabe... is that German for "wannabe"?) And a Mel Gibson groupie. And these the people who feel the need to point out what whores "all" working women must be. How DARE we step out of that kitchen!!
Lazarus at least has an intelligent point. I don't agree with it, but my mind did "go there" while I was thinking this out.
Oh My God, Kraut! I keep reading as I type this and your 3rd comment ADMITS you're vindictive against women! Now look: I'm realllllllly sorry you can't procreate out of your own body. Please take your petty jealousies up with God; not these forums.
But if you really must know?
The case had nothing to do with prostitution. And that 3rd man she NEVER agreed to? That was DEFINATELY a rape.
Usually, if someone has a gun on you, it's considered "more" illegal than prostitution, which isn't EVEN illegal in all 50 states.
Aine at 7:58PM on Nov 1st 2007
73. According to most laws and much of the male population of the U.S., women are not created equal. Until women are treated as equals this kind of behavior will continue to happen.
Rich Schumacher at 8:02PM on Nov 1st 2007
74. 61. lets see just how many of you have actually been through rape...im guessing not many. well I have and its not a pleasant experience. I don't wish it on anyone, but If you put yourself in a situation that is less than ideal for a woman to stay out of danger that way than Im sorry but in an essence you almost look for trouble. There are many ways to make a living and there is no excuse for any woman to have to do it that way. It shames you and lowers your standards and all in all is unhealthy so in my eyes she was raped buy could have avoided it!!!
Amy at 6:55PM on Nov 1st 2007
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What happened to you should never have happened and it should not happen to any human being. I hope that you got the right kind of help and that you have been able to put your life back together. I also hope that the criminal that raped you, is now paying for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Having said that, Im really surprised that you of all the other bloggers would place some of the blame on the victim, prostitute or not, she was a victim. Also, I'm sure that you better than most of the bloggers here know that RAPE is not about sex!
She may not be playing it "safe" with her choice of life style, true. But that hardly gives anyone the right to RAPE her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patty at 8:55PM on Nov 1st 2007
75. well, i guess it freakin' proves i believe in what i wrote and i am willing to stand up for what i believe in.
jenny at 9:34PM on Nov 1st 2007