Uh, no, it's rape. So says the bar association in a rare rebuke of a municipal judge. The judge ruled that a woman forced by a client to have sex with three other men at gunpoint should be considered just "a robbery." Salon.com's Broadsheet quotes the Chancellor of the Philadelphia Bar Association's condemnation of the decision: "Even though the woman is a prostitute, it doesn't mean she couldn't be a victim. Once she says 'No, it's not okay,' then to have sex with her is rape."
It's amazing the judge could have thought otherwise, but she even defended the decision later to the press. According to the original AP article:Municipal Judge Teresa Carr Deni heightened the furor when she defended her decision to a newspaper. ''She consented and she didn't get paid,'' Deni told the Philadelphia Daily News. ''I thought it was a robbery.''
Deni also told the newspaper that the case ''minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped.''
Some back-story on the case from the same article:The 20-year-old woman, a single mother, testified that she worked for an escort service that advertised through the Web site Craigslist.
She went to a North Philadelphia home Sept. 20 to meet Gindraw, who had agreed to pay her $150 for sex. He then said that a friend was coming with the money and that the friend would pay her another $100 to perform sex acts.
Instead, three other men arrived, and Gindraw pulled a gun and ordered the woman to have sex with all of them, she testified.
''He said that I'm going to do this for free, and I'm not going nowhere, and I better cooperate or he was going to kill me,'' she testified at a preliminary hearing.
The article also quotes Carol Tracy, executive director of the Philadelphia-based Women's Law Project, as saying the judge's comments that the case was just "theft of services" was ''a throwback to the Middle Ages, when rape was a crime against property, not against a person.''Seriously. The implication of the decision is that prostitutes are offered less protection under the law than other women. We're relieved to see that the bar association is on the case.
Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 10)
76. No means no for everybody, not just non-prostitutes. It doesn't matter what she went over there for. The man pulled a gun on her and told her she wasn't going to get paid for sex. They hadn't had sex yet when he told her this, so you can bet she wouldn't have agreed to it if she'd had a choice. When she was forced to have sex at gunpoint with three men, that was gang rape. How much obvious can it be? That judge should put herself in the prostitute's place and see what she'd decide then.
Linda at 9:48PM on Nov 1st 2007
77. Of course it's rape. It's like raping a doctor. Isn't that against the law? Uh, in stupid shock you are wondering how a doctor and a prostitute can be related? You don't know much about how doctors operate do you? No? Then shut up...
Bill
Bill at 10:10PM on Nov 1st 2007
78. From: KrautKnabe at 12:06PM on Nov 1st 2007
1. Well, You should be able to tell us from your own lengthy career and personal experience Ada, Right?
No need to post a Blog about a Prostitute being raped when you can provide such first hand knowledge and wisdom in that area of expertise....
What say you???
V -Don't know what she would say, but I say you're misogynistic slime.....
Ventrue at 10:51PM on Nov 1st 2007
79. please do not confuse religion with stupidity, there is a real difference. unfortunately some happen to use stupidity in all areas of their lives
J at 9:29AM on Nov 2nd 2007
80. Well, when I've pissed this many people off....
I must be saying all the right things....
When Germans begin to question my Racial Purity..haha.....Ahnen Erbe, Ich denke zu mir....Never mind, I don't want to give you the satisfaction.
After 30 years and my Hochdeutsch is as eingerostet as it is? I guess that makes me a wanna be to you Real Germans huh?
I humbly submit to your Teutonic supremacy....
KrautKnabe at 11:54PM on Nov 1st 2007
81. Ich versuche auf deutsch zu schreibe dass Euch einen guten Lachen bekommen können.
Was für ein Schade.
Für vier Generationen früher ist meine Familie von Deutschland (Hinterpommern)herein gezogen.
Zwar, ist meinem deutsch nicht mehr als ins kinderheime so gut aber in dem Herz bin ich immer und noch Reindeutsch.
Dies ist das letztem mal für mich auf diese Blogsite zu erscheinen....You win.!!!
When someone sinks so low as to attack someone of their own ethnic culture and heritage because they can't win on any other basis? That's just too low....
KrautKnabe at 12:28AM on Nov 2nd 2007
82. Let us think about this. What proof do we have that a gun was involed in this "rape"? For all we know, she could have been hired, for lack of a better word, to have sex with three men, and they refused to pay her. We do not know because we were not there. If this is the case, she got agree because she was "robbed" and filled rape charges against the men. I feel that she should be charged with prostitution and the men with solicitation. No rape charges because she was there to provide a service. If the service had been paid for, then no charges would have been filed.
Just my opinion.
Jeff at 1:01AM on Nov 2nd 2007
83. I like the delusion of a utero-centric culture. Seems interesting since the US is actually a patriarchy, just like pretty much everywhere else in the world. Sure, female genital mutilation is not commonplace, and rare would be the day when an accepable "honor killing" would take place in the good ole U.S. of A....but because such deplorable acts are not taking place here, does that mean this is a utero-centric society? I don't think so.
Maybe you could elaborate in more specific terms just what you mean by this. Because if that were true, women would not be making 75 cents to a man's dollar. Women would not be told "well maybe you shouldn't have dressed that way" when trying to prosecute a rapist. And what about pornography, which pushes fabricated stereotypes on how women should look and respond to males, especially in a sexual scenario. For centuries, women's sexuality has been made into something derrogatory and undesirable. Women who are in touch with their sexuality are seen as "the wrong kind of girl." Because it's so much hotter to force yourself on a woman who embodies the puritanical "values" on which this nation was founded.
Yes, prostitution is a terrible thing. But not for the reasons many of the misogynists, both men and women, on this post have stated. It is terrible because women (and even some men) are in poverty and trying to make a living enough to support themselves and sometimes their children. The same as why some kids are hustling crack and robbing people at gunpoint, etc... ok it's all illegal, but for some that's their only way to survive. I'm not saying this woman shouldn't be prosecuted for prostituition, but in a misgynistic society, we are not taking a holistic approach. Even you Bible thumpers out there should know they are people too- Jesus befriended the prostitutes.
Instead of the classic "blame the victim" mindset which is seen commonly with rape cases, why not try to think how can we help our fellow citizens not have to turn to a life of crime just to get by? Only in a patriarchy would people be so quick to start blaming the victim for getting raped. So what if consentual sex between her and client #1 was illegal, the fact is... she did not agree to the events that took place when she got there, and the last time I checked, forcing anyone to do anything at gunpoint...even unwanted sex to a sex worker!!.. is just as illegal. Two illegal acts do not cancel each other out.
Everyone is going to think what they want to believe about this case, but there is something bigger going on here. It just illusrates the ignorance of a society that enforces gender stereotypes from a very early age. Masculine and feminine are conditioned, male and female are biological...these are not the same terms and they are used interchangeably. Just look at the toys geared towards male or female children. Gender is conditioned and enforced and it creates prejudices against one sex, in this case anything "masculine" as physically strong, stoic, tough...and anything "feminine" as weak, emotional, and something not to be emulated by males. How degrading would that be?
If there were no "gender" there wouldn't be this need for power over another group of people. As many have said, rape is not about sex but about power. Feminism is not about having a matriarchy instead of a patriarcy, but rather it is about doing away with any of that way of thinking. It breeds ignorance and hostility and all kinds of unnecessary things, even debates about rape. Face the facts, the woman who happened to be a prostitute was forced to do more than she bargained for...STILL rape. Why are people so afraid to acknowledge that?
k8lyn at 1:05AM on Nov 2nd 2007
84. I can't say specifically what the Pennsylvania Criminal Code says about rape, but pretty much every state says that a sex crime is committed, if a woman has sense because of a threat of death or other bodily harm.
It doesn't matter if the woman is a slut that puts out for anyone or a prostitute that looks for tricks on a street corner. Getting a woman to have sex by threatening her with harm is rape.
Here's where the judge is really wrong. A court cannot enforce an illegal contract. So, a prostitute can't go to court, if she performed sex acts, and then the customer didn't pay.
So, it's legally impossible to steal something that is expressly illegal to sell. In other words, if a woman can't legally offer sex for money, a man can't steal sex.
Of course, it might be possible to steal sex in Nevada, where prostitution is legal in many counties.
Kent at 1:33AM on Nov 2nd 2007
85. Judges are supposed to follow legal predicate. It's what we pay them to do. Under U.S. law, once either partner in a sex act says no, consent is withdrawn.
So, if at any point after one party has clearly indicated that they either A) Aren't interested in engaging in a sex act in the first place, or B) Have changed their mind about continuing said act, the other party legally must cease and desist.
The law is not a respector of persons in this regard in terms of race, gender or profession.
Now. Had the scenario gone like this, The man tells the prostitute he will hire her for $150. She agrees. They have consensual sex. At no time does she say no. After having sex, the man refuses to pay her. THEN, my friends, you have theft of services.
BUT. Anyone, even a prostitute, can withdraw consent to having sex. Everyone, due to being considered free (as its been quite some time since the Emancipation Proclamation), has the right to govern their own body. If you posit that the men can come in and force a prostitute to have sex at gunpoint with three men after she has said no, it does not matter what her reasons are, or that she initially consented. Once she says no, to continue on basically holds her captive against her will and takes her rights to self govern away from her. It is a per se kidnap and actually could have been prosecuted as such as well. They are using just such a kidnap charge in the current OJ case.
In America, everyone is considered equal and free, even people who have morally questionable professions. I don't like what she does for a living, but I'm glad I was born in the only country in the world that at least tries to get it right, in the letter of the law anyway, and treat everyone the same.
Sydney at 1:55AM on Nov 2nd 2007
86. Riddle: How do you make a hormone? Don't pay her!...badamp boom, ching!
Lizard at 1:56AM on Nov 2nd 2007
87. Kent makes a good point about the inability to enforce illegal contracts. Although, I definitely don't agree that this is the only place the judge went wrong.
Sydney at 2:03AM on Nov 2nd 2007
88. 78. Well, when I've pissed this many people off....
I must be saying all the right things....
FermentedCabbageBoy, have women hated you in your life as much as you hate them?
You know you really piss women off, don't you? The captioned quote says so, anyway.
Are you seeking a remedy? Do you think your continued misogyny is going to make your life work better?
I've tried to engage you on substance in another post and you bailed.
That's an idiom in English.
It means you 'hit' hard as you can but run if there's any real opposition.
This post is intentionally modeled to some extent on your own style as I perceive it.
Sorry, but you ought to know what it smells like when it's incoming.
Sucks, right? I know...
If you try to do that with human relationships it's not ever going to work out, not any better than it's working now on this forum.
I had a childhood friend who did that and he wound up being a serial killer.
No joke, KrautKnabe, that's something that really happened.
You vent here, which is positive, but I sense there's something extremely unbalanced in your life and I think your readers are more aware of this than you are.
Until my America goes completely fasco/libertarian, there is still a little altruism left in this nation.
I read it here all the time, and I think you could benefit from it.
I wish Father John, the eastern orthodox priest who posted here on separation of church and state were writing this because I'm too damned thorny to communicate well and he'd almost certainly do it the right way, or at least better than I could.
To be crude, I think you're most likely not getting laid and I think that's what could be frustrating you.
Been there, but fortunately for me long long ago when I sounded more like you.
Frustration has been defined as prolonged anger. Might be time for some serious introspection, and maybe cutting the other gender a little slack?
I had to do the painful personal inventory,repeatedly, I bet most of us have, and maybe you will have to do the same to find some peace. If it doesn't kill you it'll make you stronger.
You're not a dumb guy at all, KrKn, but you really seem to hate women, and that suggests a deeper problem.
The ladies appear to agree.
that's all I'm willing to say about that.
It was probably way too much criticism and I'd have said it in private to you if possible, but I sincerely think you're waving a red flag.
Please don't lash out at innocent people in your anger. Impulsive actions will be regretted forever but they can't be undone. I lay no claims to innocence so I'm always a legit target.
On your behalf, I admit that I may be completely wrong and you're just posing as a decompensated person to get reactions, and that's cool, even entertaining, but if not, there it is.
I know this post will offend you and I regret that and apologize for it, but I've looked the other way on stuff like this before with other people and bad things happened that I think I could have prevented if I'd had the cojones to speak up.
If you need to CYA, fire away. I'm rarely this honest in an open forum, but there's something wrong with the picture you paint.
Sorry to say so, dude. I don't mean to be an enemy.
I wish you peace. I know I pissed you off and if you want to drop the hammer on me, I don't blame you and whatever you say in counterattack I'll let slide.
I'd have done the same if somebody took this kind of swipe at me.
You said you were far more intelligent than I am on another thread and I won't contest that, but maybe you could prove it to yourself. Be the big guy since I took the low road on this post.
Best to you,
Clif
Clif Kuplen at 2:19AM on Nov 2nd 2007
89. While drunk drinkers, illegal drug users, and others violating the law (including prostitutes) are and should be held accountable for their illegal actions, their "parties in crime" who 1) enter into illegal transactions with said offenders, 2)act out of negligence or depraved indifference 3) aid and abet them, and/ or 4)violate their civil rights, are and should be legally held accountable for their actions. If you kill someone who asks you to kill them, your action is still illegal. As elemental as it sounds, two wrongs do not make a right.
If the prostitute had said NO to one john, and he forced her to have sex with him, it's still rape. A judge who considers gangbang at gunpoint a "theft of services" obviously has issues.
JK at 8:54AM on Nov 2nd 2007
90. Why in the hell would you think I'm going to"drop the Hammer" on you?
You are awfully arrogant in your presumption to diagnose if not amusing.
I don't care that my opinions are dislike by a few fringe loonies and extremist nut jobs, present company included, who have made their positions frighteningly and patently clear to the world.
I am however not going to accept ethnic attacks from those of my own culture and from that point I have to draw the line.
Everything I have ever said has been drawn from sound Sociological study, experience and knowledge and because this extreeeeeeeemely liberal and far fringe element Blog takes exception to my very solid understanding of things? Things that I have lectured, Debated and discussed professionally and intellectually for years in my circles with great admiration and respect and never once become a serial killer. Do you have any idea the praise, merit and accolaids that I receive out here for my work and presentation? For my years of study and Sociological Assessments?
I have even received some on a small scale here from reasonable amd moderate people but there aren't many here.
Most people drawn to this Blog are as you, extremist and fanatical in their views and will surely take exception to my standpoints on most things.
People like me find Ada and others Repugnant and have as you say, the "Cajonas" to say so.
Quite Frankly, This Rag Tag, eclectic collection of street urchins and Hookers to Post Graduate Level Educators provides quite a variety Crowd of associates but not my typical.
Don't diagnose, You're not qualified and just plain bad at it as arrogant as you are...you just aren't good at alot of stuff..
KrautKnabe at 2:57AM on Nov 2nd 2007