Uh, no, it's rape. So says the bar association in a rare rebuke of a municipal judge. The judge ruled that a woman forced by a client to have sex with three other men at gunpoint should be considered just "a robbery." Salon.com's Broadsheet quotes the Chancellor of the Philadelphia Bar Association's condemnation of the decision: "Even though the woman is a prostitute, it doesn't mean she couldn't be a victim. Once she says 'No, it's not okay,' then to have sex with her is rape."
It's amazing the judge could have thought otherwise, but she even defended the decision later to the press. According to the original AP article:Municipal Judge Teresa Carr Deni heightened the furor when she defended her decision to a newspaper. ''She consented and she didn't get paid,'' Deni told the Philadelphia Daily News. ''I thought it was a robbery.''
Deni also told the newspaper that the case ''minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped.''
Some back-story on the case from the same article:The 20-year-old woman, a single mother, testified that she worked for an escort service that advertised through the Web site Craigslist.
She went to a North Philadelphia home Sept. 20 to meet Gindraw, who had agreed to pay her $150 for sex. He then said that a friend was coming with the money and that the friend would pay her another $100 to perform sex acts.
Instead, three other men arrived, and Gindraw pulled a gun and ordered the woman to have sex with all of them, she testified.
''He said that I'm going to do this for free, and I'm not going nowhere, and I better cooperate or he was going to kill me,'' she testified at a preliminary hearing.
The article also quotes Carol Tracy, executive director of the Philadelphia-based Women's Law Project, as saying the judge's comments that the case was just "theft of services" was ''a throwback to the Middle Ages, when rape was a crime against property, not against a person.''Seriously. The implication of the decision is that prostitutes are offered less protection under the law than other women. We're relieved to see that the bar association is on the case.
Reader Comments ( Page 9 of 10)
121. Okay, try this, you slow learners. You (make it your sister if you're a guy) go to the home of a boyfriend wearing sexy lingerie and planning on consensual sex. Once you get there, he shoves a gun in your face, calls his buddies to come on over because he wants them to help him gang-bang you. Is he committing rape -- or were you "asking for it" by (a) consenting to sex in the first place and (b) committing an act of immorality and (c) doing something slightly dangerous, namely being alone with a person out of reach of help.
When his buddies are done with you and he climbs on top, can he be prosecuted for rape... or can he use the defense of, "She said yes when she first came over, so I had every right to f**k her before I let her go."
Answers seem obvious to me.
cat at 11:51PM on Nov 4th 2007
122. How about this analogy: A heroin addict goes to his dealer's home, buys drugs, and then asks the dealer to give him the injection. The dealer shoots him up with cyanide and watches him die. Has the dealer committed a crime? This is multiple choice:
a) No, because the buyer was committing an inherently dangerous act and put his own fool self in harm's way.
b) No, because the buyer was committing a criminal act and deserves no protection under the law.
c) No, because the buyer was committing an immoral act and deserved death from a vengeful God.
d) Yes, because killing another human being with cyanide is AGAINST THE LAW in America. No matter who the victim is.
cat at 12:09AM on Nov 5th 2007
123. What have we learned here? (#63 mentioned it!)
Men should "protect" women, If you're a whore get some help collecting / safety ie: Pimp. Never paid for a whore, only paid to make them go away........just jokin.
Roadmaster at 2:11AM on Nov 5th 2007
124. You know, it never stops stunning me the lack of empathy and compassion in America today. But then, silly me, I really shouldn't have thought you ever were. Being that everyone here can afford computers and likely has a home in which to use them, I doubt that you have an inkling as to what its like to actually be a prositute.
I was one. I worked for a few years illegally in Sacramento, and worked legally in a brothel in Nevada. So here's the difference between rape and turning a trick. The trick is when you agree on what he's paying and what you're doing. He shows you the money. You take it and secure it somewhere (I usually put it in my shoes) Then you have sex. Illegal prostitution, you have no control over what really happens. He might slam you're head up against the wall and stick his thing in places that run five times the normal cost. He might not wear a condom. He might take his money back. And yeah, all those are rape the moment the hooker withdraws consent. Of course to most johns, like the MANY who have posted here... her concent mattered minimally in the first place. After all she's just a dirty whore.
Now at the legal brothel things were much better, relatively speaking. It was a controlled and monitored environment with the police obligated to interceed on the worker's behalf if the 'guest' didn't follow the rules. And because the "legal connundrum" (as some of you sorry bastards have mused) didn't exist I could ask and recieve ten times the prices that I recieved on the street. And incidently... yeah. I had guests who tried to rape me. They wanted more than the hour they paid for, or wanted it up my butt, or wanted to not wear a condom. The difference was that when I said a code word, two of the biggest sweetest men you ever met would come in and escort the guest to the office where, at best, they would be escorted to their car, and at worse, charged with rape.
Incidently... how many drug dealers and rapists would be exposed if assholes like you could focus on not percecuting as many people as possible?
Somber at 10:58AM on Nov 5th 2007
125. Lawyer here, and not from Philly.
The judge should be censured, no doubt about it.
First of all, "it was prostitution" fans -- it wasn't. There was no paid sex here, only her intent, originally, to receive pay. Obviously this john never intended to pay her. No way would a prostitution charge be winnable in court, so it's not even likely they'd charge her in the first place.
Second, yes, charging all the men with rape would be correct, including on the fellow who held the gun. He was the one who called, he held the gun, and he was clearly part of a conspiracy. Conspirators are charged with the same crime, same degree, as the perpetrators they accompany. Under Pennsylvania law, the men's act was not only rape but also aggravated assault.
MJ at 12:15PM on Nov 5th 2007
126. Hi April, Oy.... these people, who knew???
I know, unfortunately there are way too many of Ronald Zeh's in the world.
Good thing Jews don't belive in hell!! Although I must say, there are those times when I think we already are in hell, especially when you read some of the hateful garbage like in this blog!!
Well, we wont ended here that's for sure!! Too bad.
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Hey Cat #'s 119 and 120, don't waste your time, I already tried a very similar analogy, these people don't give a damn.
LB at 2:15PM on Nov 5th 2007
127. FermentedCabbageBoy, as long as you stand in front of what I've written, I'll stand behind it. Bark through the fence all you want, I'll translate.
Clif Kuplen at 3:04PM on Nov 5th 2007
128. Hi April:)
I just realized that I sent my last post with my friends computer and did not change the name. So post #125 was from Patty not LB. Sorry! But, I agree with you 100% on this issue!
Patty at 4:03PM on Nov 5th 2007
129. #124 MJ. You must practice Tax Law, or something other than criminal law, 'cause I wouldn't want you as my defense attorney, resting my case on the grounds that; "It-wasn't-prostitution-because-she- didn't-get-paid," theory. She is not contesting the fact that she was going to perform services for a fee. As soon as a price was discussed, then this was converted into a crime, whether she got paid or not. The intent was there, and that's all that is needed for charges to be bound. In example; there are plenty of internet "predators" who are criminally charged for the "intent" of having sex with a minor, while they were actually communicating with an adult undercover officer.
Secondly, you cannot cry "rape" if you, yourself, do not have "clean hands." You can't have your cake and eat it too. Sex was the 'business' that she was in; using her body to make money (illegally) and taking on some inherent risk. Since a gun was involved, then this can be considered a robbery, and unlawful restraint. As for "rape," she'll just have to write it off as the "cost of doing business." As someone stated earlier; try suing someone who backed out on a gambling debt, or sold you some bad drugs. What if you tell a drug dealer; "Hey, don't sell me any bad drugs", and you end up buying a piece of plaster thinking that it was pure crack? Think you'd have a case against the dealer?
lizard at 6:22PM on Nov 5th 2007
130. I'd rather have a cup of coffee...
You can win a new Senseo Coffee Machine here!
http://www.mycreditfriend.com
Troy at 9:30PM on Nov 5th 2007
131. Remember that part of the time some prostitutes are SLAVES. Either by threat from a pimp or by no skills, or by drug or emotional bondage, many continue in this self-destroying work. They are subject to many STD's, emotional abuse, not to mention dissociative disorder and physical abuse or even murder...and many lose possession of their children...
Maybe the female judge is in the "new" rotten brand of feminism which no longer stands up to defend the female victims, but even sometimes has no problem with some women (girls) getting abused in some part of the pornography system.
I've researched some of the HORRORS of prostitution. They don't need the LAW weakened as it applies to them!
what is TRUTH??? at 9:37PM on Nov 5th 2007
132. If she says "no," it's rape.
Diana B. at 1:01AM on Nov 6th 2007
133. Thank you for this article, Ada.
The men should also have been charged with threatening murder at gunpoint. And if that's not a crime in and of itself, it should be.
wayne at 7:15AM on Nov 7th 2007
134. P.S.
YIKES!! is all I can say about some responders' bizarre definitions of rape, sex, and prostitution. And maybe some counseling would be appropriate.
While the word "whore" is odious and unnecessarily offensive, I suppose it does have a quaint fundamentalist zealout ring to it... Puts me in the mind of a cahrmoing, old-time stoning.
My sympathies to the sex partner/s of the lizard.
wayne at 7:25AM on Nov 7th 2007
135. That word was "charming" I swear.
wayne at 7:26AM on Nov 7th 2007