I debated atheist Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, yesterday on the Michael Medved radio show. It was a two hour debate, and conducted at a high level that is not characteristic of radio programs. The main focus of the debate was my bestselling book What's So Great About Christianity, and in the course of the discusson we covered a lot of topics from the fine-tuned universe to why humans evolved morality to whether Adam and Eve were real people.
Shermer, always ready with his ream of data, uncorked some fascinating statistics about how Christians are more prone to social pathologies than non-Christians. For example, the more-religious United States has higher crime rates than the less-religious Europe. In America, evangelical Christians are apparently more likely to be uneducated and to have higher violent crime rates than non-Christians. Shermer even cited a study showing that secular doctors were more likely to do voluntary work than Christian doctors. Shermer went on and on about all this, and I was waiting for him to reveal that Christians have a greater tendency to bestiality than secular folks, but to my surprise Shermer had no data on this subject.
Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America. But even the old statistics prove nothing, because the U.S. is an ethnically diverse society, immigrant societies always have higher crime rates, and European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South. One can hardly conclude that evangelical Christianity makes you poor and dumb. Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day.
Shermer and I will be debating December 5 at George Washington University and the public is invited. (I will post the venue and time on this blog.) We will also be debating December 9 at 2 pm at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California. Tickets are available for this event at a nominal price and you can find the details at skeptic.com. Seating is limited so book early.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 16)
16. Actually European countries DO have a black-white problem (Over there, blacks in question are likely to be immigrants from Africa.)
Liz at 9:13AM on Nov 6th 2007
17. Too heck with this nonsense, if you want to read a really great and exciting book about a young marine's adventures in South Vietnam then read "Arc Light" by G.V. Short. It not only pertains to what we are experiencing in Iraq, but also all around the world.
gshort3011 at 9:13AM on Nov 6th 2007
18. A christian is a person who has lived in the world and has been of the world, and has learned that sin in all its form is NOT the way to go...so they made changes in their lives for the better...I know I did! One of my college professors once quoted "A man with an experience is NEVER at the MERCY of a man with an argument"...I wrote that one down...I know what the world has to offer, and I don't want to partake of sin, but I will on the otherhand, continue to believe that education is a door opener...christian or not, getting an education is one item with which christians and nonchristians can agree on! I choose to live my life as a christian, AND be educated! Education is a choice as well!
Bridget at 9:19AM on Nov 6th 2007
19. I say a hearty "Amen" to Stuart Joshua #8 and to dottie #9. I have found that the people who are the most inhumane and indifferent to much of the suffering and injustice in the world are envangelical and fundamentalist Christians. DD says that evangelical Christians are less educated and poor because many of them hail from the south. I suspect that the south is poor and less educated because of the presence of so many evangelical christians. Despite the strong evangelical presence in the south it has traditionally been the most racist section of the country, controverting Jesus' teachings of love and brotherhood. The south has traditionally been the most bellicose and blood thirsty section of the country, controverting Jesus' teaching of nonviolence. It is the south, with all of its evangelical legions that continues to thwart any attempts at economic justice ensuring that many of its inhabitants stay poor. Meanwhile politians and pundents like DD advance a very narrow understanding of Christianity that allow them to pursue policies that are a far remove from the teachings of Jesus.
randy at 9:27AM on Nov 6th 2007
20. Most people don't understand why Christians due things that are wrong sometimes. Even other Christians seem to judge fellow Christians for not behaving in a moral accepted way. The problem here is that according to the Bible we Christians are saved by grace and not by our good deeds. Does that mean that I can do whatever I please? No. It means that once Christ comes into your life there will be gradual changes that will change a person from a practicing sinner to a son of God that can still sin (even if he or she doesn't want to). The Bible says that our sinning nature comes from our flesh, which is condemned to die.
All of this means that people like Ted Haggard and many others are true Christians! They are not perfect (although they have a very, very large pressure on them to act perfect). Christianity is not about being perfect first it's about receiveing Christ first and then walking with Christ toward perfection one step at a time.
So waht happens while we are on the road toward perfection? Plenty of sin and error. Christians have mostly failed when it comes to being humble about this fact. We will make great mistakes just like everbody else, but we have someone to look up to everytime we fail.
shiningstarxport at 9:45AM on Nov 6th 2007
21. The silly arguments as to whether Christians are good, bad or indifferent takes us away from the central point as to whether or not there is a god. One can study children who believe in Santa Claus and come to conclusions as to whether Santa beliefs promote good or bad conduct. That does not prove the existence of Santa. I think there are well meaning Christians who are a positive force in the world. i somehow feel that these people who have been indoctrinated and conditioned in Christianity would probably be good Jews or Muslims also. I don't think the case can be made that we need religion to be good and moral. There are good and moral religious people and there are very evil religious people. There are good and moral atheists and evil atheists. The conduct of these people simply proves the capacity for good and evil in all of us and how complicated human behavior is. The separate argument regarding the existence of god is based on empirical and philosophical data. It would probably be nice to cede our destinies to an all powerful super being who was the embodiment of good. It is probably an extension of our social evolution from our interaction with our parents to reliance on others for our well being. While nice wishful thinking I believe on an intellectual level it is hard to make the case it is actually true. We are born alone and we die alone.
eric at 9:57AM on Nov 6th 2007
22. D'Souza writes,
"Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America."
The U.S. has the 24th highest murder rate per capita in the world:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
If you notice the statistical neighborhood, that makes the U.S. look more like Latin American, Third World and former Sovet bloc countries than the much-derided countries in Western Europe which fall further down the list.
"Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day."
If you want to run with the medical analogy, then atheists emphasize prevention instead of just letting diseases develop through bad habits.
Mark Plus at 9:56AM on Nov 6th 2007
23. I see what you're trying to do, Dinesh. You're trying to hinge atheist credibility on the claims of some that Christians are poor, ignorant, and violent. You're trying to break their backs by leading them into reductio ad absurdum, 'cause not all Christians are bad. If only you could see past the rose-colored glass that so so many actually ARE ignorant. Some churches teach fairness, but too many churches assert institutional ignorange, imploring that anything outside of Christianity is damnable and unworthy of understanding. Say what you will, but that really IS IGNORANCE, even if you don't like the connotation of the word.
Mokele Mbembe at 10:00AM on Nov 6th 2007
24. Shining star - I agree with you in your assessment that true Christians sin just like everybody else. Yes, the Bible says this. The thing I (and perhaps others) don't understand is why the Christian right wants to legislate and judge others who are not perfect. It seems to me that Christians in this country are similar to the Pharisees of the Bible. Just my opinion.
bballtony3 at 10:00AM on Nov 6th 2007
25. Why is this NEWS? The fact that Christians and Athiests disagree is hardly a world development. This guy has been on AOL's news blog for months tauting his book and religious beliefs. I don't care what he believes - he's not a news blogger. Email AOL and ask them to replace him with someone who writes about news.
Kellie at 10:05AM on Nov 6th 2007
26. "13. >>>European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America"
Liz
-----------------------------
I guess you haven't been to France or England lately?
They just don't have the gun culture that we do.
Linda at 10:10AM on Nov 6th 2007
27. It takes no faith to be an atheist. It takes the denial of reality to be a believer.
This will be posted whenever I see Greg spewing his nonsense about "it takes more faith to be an atheist than a believer".
Knight_of_BAAWA at 10:17AM on Nov 6th 2007
28. When will christians realize that there are christians who commit crimes, and that doesn't make them not christian?
Knight_of_BAAWA at 10:21AM on Nov 6th 2007
29. What this boy Shermer said is definitely true! Just look at the prisions; the majority of inmates are Christains (and Democraps).
John Boy at 10:36AM on Nov 6th 2007
30. As a Christian, I find this discussion to be quite interesting. It seems that many of you are quite hostile to Christianity--and for valid reasons, I believe. In fact, I have to agree with a lot of what's been said (not necessarily the spirit in which it has been said, however). One2etc was right in saying that much of modern Christianity is little more than political/religious hype. I've had that thought myself, and it frustrates me no end that many people think the distinguishing mark of true Christlikeness is being a good Republican. Instead, I think Jesus' true message--not the distorted, moralizing message preached from many pulpits--opposes much of what the Republican party stands for. So, while I think that your criticisms are valid, don't make blanket statements about "all Christians this" or "all Christians that." That's not fair; in fact, it only produces more hostility instead of much-needed dialogue. Furthermore, it's not true. Just for the record, I'm an evangelical Christian who's also a Communist (not Marxist; there's a major difference), a pacifist, and an environmentalist (I hate what Republican-backed industries are doing to Creation). All of that DESPITE my upbringing and my geographic location (southeastern Missouri). Now does that fit with your stereotype? My point is this: Please be more mindful of individual differences whenever you criticize. (I'm not telling you NOT to criticize, however. Anger and criticism can be very valuable and humbling, and if there's one thing that I think most Christians need more than anything, it's being humbled.)
J Boyd, I agree with you that much of what is called Christianity today is very lazy. Sadly, you're right that there are far, far, too many Christians who don't know anything about the man whom they claim to venerate and follow. They know moral precepts, having been subjected to virtual brainwashing on a weekly basis, but they don't know Christ's teachings. However, there are many Christian scholars and laypeople who ARE intelligent and who DO care about studying the Bible, not like a shopper picking and choosing which verses they want to "buy" and which they'll leave on the shelf, but as a student sitting humbly at the feet of his or her master. Yes, too many Christians are lazy, but not all. Please don't generalize like that.
Finally, I just want to challenge anyone who thinks that Christians are all harsh, judgmental, pompous, Bush-lovers to read some stuff by Brian McLaren, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and John Piper. I was a typical narrow-minded, judgmental, politically-focused, angry Christian, but after reading their stuff, I was introduced to a Christianity I'd never met before. All criticism is welcome, but at least be respectful and informed.
clmyers at 10:46AM on Nov 6th 2007