I debated atheist Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, yesterday on the Michael Medved radio show. It was a two hour debate, and conducted at a high level that is not characteristic of radio programs. The main focus of the debate was my bestselling book What's So Great About Christianity, and in the course of the discusson we covered a lot of topics from the fine-tuned universe to why humans evolved morality to whether Adam and Eve were real people.
Shermer, always ready with his ream of data, uncorked some fascinating statistics about how Christians are more prone to social pathologies than non-Christians. For example, the more-religious United States has higher crime rates than the less-religious Europe. In America, evangelical Christians are apparently more likely to be uneducated and to have higher violent crime rates than non-Christians. Shermer even cited a study showing that secular doctors were more likely to do voluntary work than Christian doctors. Shermer went on and on about all this, and I was waiting for him to reveal that Christians have a greater tendency to bestiality than secular folks, but to my surprise Shermer had no data on this subject.
Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America. But even the old statistics prove nothing, because the U.S. is an ethnically diverse society, immigrant societies always have higher crime rates, and European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South. One can hardly conclude that evangelical Christianity makes you poor and dumb. Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day.
Shermer and I will be debating December 5 at George Washington University and the public is invited. (I will post the venue and time on this blog.) We will also be debating December 9 at 2 pm at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California. Tickets are available for this event at a nominal price and you can find the details at skeptic.com. Seating is limited so book early.
Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 16)
31. I wish Dinesh would talk about the real problem, which is the Mormons. Those bastards believe that their book trumps the Bible. Can you believe that? One book is written by a man, the other book is written by God, but we're going to believe the book written by a man. Mormons are _defintely_ going to burn in Hell when the time
comes.
The Real Problem at 10:44AM on Nov 6th 2007
32. Why is it that non-believers think Christians are poorly educated and cite statistics about evangelical Christians? Shouldn't one look at all Christians, including Roman Catholics, liberal Protestants, and followers of the Orthodox tradition?
Kent at 10:57AM on Nov 6th 2007
33. ...evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated that non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the south." Oh, so it is living in the south that makes people "poor, ignorant and violent"! Southerners, remember this insult the next time the Republicans come knocking on your doors asking for your votes!
"Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients." So, you admit that atheists are not sinners! That's what weve been saying all along! Thanks for the compliment and for you support, pal!
emelpe at 11:10AM on Nov 6th 2007
34. 27. When will christians realize that there are christians who commit crimes, and that doesn't make them not christian?
Knight_of_BAAWA at 10:21AM on Nov 6th 2007
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Yes, such as Hitler. And George W. Bush. Still christians. They called themselves christians. Others thought (and think, in GWB's case) that they were christians. They both USED chriatianity as a tool, but so does a TV evangelist. It's easy to use christianity as a tool, since that's WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED FOR.
Brian at 11:26AM on Nov 6th 2007
35. And if you're talking FUNDAMENTALIST christians, most of them are indeed poor. I won't even mention the ignorant part, since personally I think ALL christians are ignorant of many things, just to differing degrees; ignorant of logic and reason and science and nature and empathy and love. Yes, even love, they are ignorant of. Their love for you is conditional on your agreeing with them. Very un-Christ-like. Oh, and they're REALLY ignorant about the nature of Jesus Christ. They say that they follow Him, but He was a pacifist hippy as far as I can see, and Christians absolutely HATE pacifists AND hippies. Oh, and they're VIOLENT and they HATE OTHERS not like them... NOt Jesus-Like at all. But they THINK that they are, so they're okay with it. Yuck.
But mostly they're ignorant of the fact of their own ignorance. They're proud of how "smart" they are, as they speak of intelligent design and creationism, or perhaps how evil Atheists are... Even looking on these boards, the most fervent defenders of Dinesh's drivel are the ones that can't spell or use grammar properly.
Brian at 11:36AM on Nov 6th 2007
36. clmeyers: I appreciate your thoughtful post, and certainly, you cannot typecast people as being ALL good, ALL bad, including christians. However, the reactions that you see from many of the atheists (myself included) are to DD's blogs, which are filled with self-agrandizement, terrible logic, and chauvinistic (w/r christianity) statements. He consistently implies that atheists do horrible things, that christians and christianity are "better" than atheism. We are speaking up to his nonsense.
Some of my best friends are christians. What some christians call "sin" I call doing the right thing, or not doing the wrong thing. The bottom line is are we good people, citizens, humanitarians. I maintain that we all are.
Linda at 11:36AM on Nov 6th 2007
37. "29. I wish Dinesh would talk about the real problem, which is the Mormons. Those bastards believe that their book trumps the Bible. Can you believe that? One book is written by a man, the other book is written by God, but we're going to believe the book written by a man. Mormons are _defintely_ going to burn in Hell when the time
comes."
The Real Problem at 10:44AM on Nov 6th 2007
Actually, it has been proven that the bible was written by man. The bible is also chock full of historical inaccuracies and fallicies. And those start right at the beginning on the first page of genesis! So, in essence, the mormon bible and the christian bible are one in the same, both fiction works created by man.
clud at 11:39AM on Nov 6th 2007
38. To say that Christians are less educated and dumb are not factual. Many are highly educated with bachelors, masters or doctorate degrees. And to categorically say these are lazy people is indeed irresponsible talk and said in total ignorance!
For example, to obtain a divinity or theological degree, one must go to a seminary. But he will not be accepted in seminary if he does not have a masters degree. And before one can have a masters degree, he has to have a bachelor degree. As in other field of education, whether secular or Christian, this involve many hours of studies and training. And by the way, you cannot obtain a degree in any field of learning without being tested and evaluated!!!
True Christians (not in name only), are hardworking people because they believe that they ultimately work for their Master (Jesus Christ), and not just for their human masters.
Christian workers and missionaries are the ones who go to the remotest part of the earth. Doctors, nurses, engineers, etc., highly skilled and educated people, volunteer to go to areas majority of us dare not go - some without pay, some content with less - just to serve because of their sense of calling. If anything because of their Christian belief and noble intents, they are to be admired and praised, not to be put down and sneered at.
L. Roberts at 12:32PM on Nov 6th 2007
39. "Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients."
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Yes it does. They seek a cure. They do not find one however. Atheists have psychologists that might have helped. But the church has prayers and rules and sayings and laws and doctrines and SHAME, but alas, no cures, so the sinner never finds real help. What they DO find is a place of acceptance for their sins, since they only have to repent to God and they're GONE, like magic stain remover. But the sin is really still there in the heart, of course. Eventually in many cases the christian can't take it anymore and they CRACK, like Haggard and Craig did.
So yes, they flock to christianity for help, but NO, they don't receive any REAL help. Hence the reason why there are so many NUTBAGS that call themselves christians.
The nuts don't find a cure, they find ACCEPTANCE in a community of other nuts.
Brian at 11:49AM on Nov 6th 2007
40. 37. To say that Christians are less educated and dumb are not factual.
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Is not factual. Not "are"...
Oops. LOL... There's that bad grammar thing again. And what a time for it to show up, huh? Just when you were telling us how smart you are.
Well, you're not doing any good for your side today, are you, sport?
Brian at 11:52AM on Nov 6th 2007
41. 2012 is right around the corner.....forget everything someone said or saying...are you right with the lord? anti-christ bush and his stupid friends will have alot of people going to hell....chasing dead masons....one question...if your president is an asshole. why chase dead assholes? the dead chasing the dead.........the time is near........and hell is hot......trust me i created it....p.s. i never created a religion..for you fake fathers....hell is even hotter.......
THIN KING ACE/JESUS CHRIST at 9:15AM on Nov 7th 2007
42. 37. To say that Christians are less educated and dumb are not factual.
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In fact, I'm having a T-Shirt made with this on it!
Thanks! LOL!
Brian at 11:56AM on Nov 6th 2007
43. For example, to obtain a divinity or theological degree, one must go to a seminary. But he will not be accepted in seminary if he does not have a masters degree. And before one can have a masters degree, he has to have a bachelor degree. As in other field of education, whether secular or Christian, this involve many hours of studies and training. And by the way, you cannot obtain a degree in any field of learning without being tested and evaluated!!!
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That IS a lot of hard work, just to get an advanced degree in anti-logic and fable recall.
What a waste of time.
Brian at 12:01PM on Nov 6th 2007
44. True that, now is not the time to be chasing Christians. Bigger fish are on the horizon. There is a scripture that says, if they're not against us, they're for us. Christians will be surprisingly good allies in the times to come when the nation of Islam rises more fiercely, or they will be really good shark bait. Pray it's the former. I am one.
ceevo at 12:40PM on Nov 8th 2007
45. 31. Why is it that non-believers think Christians are poorly educated and cite statistics about evangelical Christians? Shouldn't one look at all Christians, including Roman Catholics, liberal Protestants, and followers of the Orthodox tradition?
Kent at 10:57AM on Nov 6th 2007
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So you admit that the evangelicals are a loss, brain-wise. That was honest of you.
Brian at 12:08PM on Nov 6th 2007