I debated atheist Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, yesterday on the Michael Medved radio show. It was a two hour debate, and conducted at a high level that is not characteristic of radio programs. The main focus of the debate was my bestselling book What's So Great About Christianity, and in the course of the discusson we covered a lot of topics from the fine-tuned universe to why humans evolved morality to whether Adam and Eve were real people.
Shermer, always ready with his ream of data, uncorked some fascinating statistics about how Christians are more prone to social pathologies than non-Christians. For example, the more-religious United States has higher crime rates than the less-religious Europe. In America, evangelical Christians are apparently more likely to be uneducated and to have higher violent crime rates than non-Christians. Shermer even cited a study showing that secular doctors were more likely to do voluntary work than Christian doctors. Shermer went on and on about all this, and I was waiting for him to reveal that Christians have a greater tendency to bestiality than secular folks, but to my surprise Shermer had no data on this subject.
Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America. But even the old statistics prove nothing, because the U.S. is an ethnically diverse society, immigrant societies always have higher crime rates, and European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South. One can hardly conclude that evangelical Christianity makes you poor and dumb. Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day.
Shermer and I will be debating December 5 at George Washington University and the public is invited. (I will post the venue and time on this blog.) We will also be debating December 9 at 2 pm at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California. Tickets are available for this event at a nominal price and you can find the details at skeptic.com. Seating is limited so book early.
Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 16)
46. christians... what are they? liar,thieves, and murders. using my name in vain...they also hung me on the fu..... cross.. one i never preached to any white people.....scriptors to building your f...... govern-ment only to make dollars and mint. to invading other peoples land only to get fryed in the end... from the first president to the last... i smacked george then and i'm going to smack the sh... out of bush now and anybody with them....i'm like a now and later....fu.. all you haters....cadbury christ
THIN KING ACE/JESUS CHRIST at 9:13AM on Nov 7th 2007
47. Christian workers and missionaries are the ones who go to the remotest part of the earth. Doctors, nurses, engineers, etc., highly skilled and educated people, volunteer to go to areas majority of us dare not go
--------------------------------------------------
If only in the process they didn't evangelize and try to get more people to convert to christianity, that would indeed be unselfish of them. But they do.
"Christianity or Hunger" is not much of a choice to offer the destitute.
Brian at 12:19PM on Nov 6th 2007
48. I have to admit something. One reason why I don't respect theism as much as I could is because it's lazy thinking. It's the same kind of thinking that I encounter all the time when I meet some one who 'dislikes' gays just because. It's like there's a trap door built into their brains and their thought wanders around until the thought leads them to that door and woosh, down they go. It's almost instinctive it seems to happen so fast. And that doesn't mean that I think that christians are stupid. It's just that there's this point where active and critical thinking stops and they're in full belief mode.
For instance, my friend believes in young earth creationism. He's a genius with computers and kicks my butt at World of Warcraft, but whenever anything comes up that challenges his belief, the trap door is sprung and he's right because he believes it and I'm wrong because I don't. It doesn't matter if I point out that it would take cubic miles to cover most of the earth. It doesn't matter if I point out the technology used in palentology for dating puts the world at well over 6000 years old. The trap door is sprung, and as far as he is concerned God created all of existance at the atomic point where the c-14 level of plant material would say it was tens of thousands of years old... just to screw with us. And the water? God magically created it, and magically wisked it away. And nothing, no argument, no logic, no nothing, can get him out of that trap door.
Now, there's christianity and then there's American christianity. And I'm pretty sure the two are pretty seperate. I understand that christianity has appeals for mercy, forgiveness, and charity. The thing is that those are exactly what I am not seeing from American christians. Mercy to stop the persistent existance of Terri Schavo. Forgiveness for criminals and offers of rehabilitation. Charity to the poor through taxes. It's like, these are the corner stones of what makes christianity a good thing in a real world sense. This is the stuff that Mother Theresa was famous for. But suggest to an American christian that they pay more taxes to help the homeless, the people absolutely most in need, and you see the trapdoor. And here's the catch... they want to help, but they'd rather do it through a christian charity. Why? So long as the homeless person isn't starving or freezing or dying, what does it matter if it's through a charity or a social program? The answer's pretty sad. By helping the poor through a charity, they're boosting themselves by thinking they are willingly helping Jesus' message. If they were taxed and they were compelled to fund homeless programs then there's no injected feeling of virtue. In fact, the 'message' of charity becomes an obligation. And if there's one thing that christians don't want to be obligated too, it's a worldly secular law. Nevermind that law fulfills the needs and care of people, which is ultimately christianity's only real claim of virtue. If the christian can't do it on their time, in their inclination, when it benefits them for charities they support then they don't want to pay it.
In fact... something that utterly baffles me is why are christians conservative at all. I understand goldberg economic conservatism and libertarianism... but what I don't get is why are so many 'value' christians conservative. It seems to me that paying into the system, helping others without expectation of reward, is right in line with what christianity should be about. It is the whole seperation of church and state thing? Are you only willing to support the system if it's some kind of American christian taliban? Jesus was tolerant of the most hated aspects of society. If one of his men wasn't gay I'd be pretty surprised and disappointed. And I don't see Jesus demonizing the roman pagans. Yeah, he disaggrees, but I don't see him saying 'and all these guys... kill em.' So why is it that American christians want to evoke Jesus and christianity as an excuse to make the system like they want it to be and yet refuse to support systems that help people as Jesus taught. Do you really think Jesus would have been pissed with you if you'd called your republican rep and asked them to support the SCHIP legislation to override a veto? Do you really think that Jesus would have gone out of his way to make sure that it was legally impossible for two gay men to enjoy a life of happiness together? I mean this is Jesus, the ultimate nice guy in the universe, right? So why the conservatism? Why the repression? Why the intolerance and hate? Why don't I see christians suing Ann Coultier for defamation of faith when she calls herself a christian? Why don't I see the virtue that christians repeatedly, incessantly, claim to possess?
Because some where in their mind in a trap door. Maybe they installed it themselves. Maybe some one else did it for them. But whenever the thought becomes too unpleasant they can woosh their thoughts right too the safe place.
And that's nothing to be proud of to me.
Somber at 12:20PM on Nov 6th 2007
49. Brian: Thanks for correcting my grammar. I didn't catch that for I did not have time to edit my work. I do make mistakes from time to time as everybody else, I believe. But perhaps, you don't! Although I have never meet in my entire life anyone who does not. It appears that you take great pleasure in finding fault in others and pointing their mistakes.
By the way, where do you think logic come from?
L. Roberts at 12:27PM on Nov 6th 2007
50. Reply to: (7. J Boyd) Do you know why Christianity is so appealing to the uneducated? Because it's a LAZY religion. You don't need to study, you don't need to be tested or evaluated, you don't need to learn vast amounts of history or ritual or information. Hell, you don't even need to crack the textbook (Bible)! All you have to do is "let Jesus into your heart (wha'ever)", and then pick and choose whatever scripture works for you and go about and "spread the gospel" that you don't even fully comprehend. (end)
Please... don't miss the point of this post, and Shermer's appearance on the Michael Medved radio show.
First, both debaters are trying to create some buzz in the press for their DVD of the debate. To do that, you need some kind of conflict.
Second, we need to give Shermer feedback on what worked and what didn't. If Christians tend to be less educated than atheists, does that rise to the level of "a contribution of Atheism to humanity"?
In this case, Shermer gave aorrect Answer, but in this case, the Correct Answer tends to alienate an audience composed of (the average in America) between 70% and 85% Christians.
As usual, D'Souza gives an answer that doesn't make any sense at all... but persuades Christians to go out and buy his book.
William Hays at 12:26PM on Nov 6th 2007
51. 18. Most people don't understand why Christians due things that are wrong sometimes.
-------------------------------------------------
You didn't pay attention in school perhaps?
Hey, I make typos, but to mis-spell "do" as "due" is pretty sad, no?
It's interesting how many christian claims to being intelligent are strewn with mis-spellings and bad grammar, isn't it?
Just another interesting symptom of "hypo-christ-sy"...
Brian at 12:27PM on Nov 6th 2007
52. 46. Brian: Thanks for correcting my grammar. I didn't catch that for I did not have time to edit my work.
-----------------------------------------------
Hey, we all do. Only not while in the very process of making claims to being intelligent. That's the funny part.
If I were to make such claims, I'd definitely check them several times to avoid looking stupid.
Brian at 12:30PM on Nov 6th 2007
53. I heard part of your debate yesterday Dinesh, and enjoyed it very much. I really enjoy Medved's show, and I especially liked his nice manner.
The debate was interesting and broad-ranging, and you won hands down!
Thanks - and please keep up the good work!
Ken Berg at 12:31PM on Nov 6th 2007
54. Re-post - sorry for the typo.
I heard part of your debate yesterday Dinesh, and enjoyed it very much. I really enjoy Medved's show, and I especially like his nice manner.
The debate was interesting and broad-ranging, and you won hands down!
Thanks - and please keep up the good work!
Ken Berg at 12:33PM on Nov 6th 2007
55. By the way, where do you think logic come from?
L. Roberts at 12:27PM on Nov 6th 2007
Where do you think logic COMES from? (Not "come")
The Greeks. Aristotle. See?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=logic&go=Go
Main article: History of logic
Many cultures have employed intricate systems of reasoning and asked questions about logic or propounded logical paradoxes. For example, in India, the Nasadiya Sukta of the Rigveda (RV 10.129) contains ontological speculation in terms of various logical divisions that were later recast formally as the four circles of catuskoti: "A", "not A", "A and not A", and "not A and not not A".[6] and the Chinese philosopher Gongsun Long (ca. 325–250 BC) proposed the paradox "One and one cannot become two, since neither becomes two." [7]
The first sustained work on the subject of logic which has survived was that of Aristotle. [8] The formally sophisticated treatment of modern logic descends from the Greek tradition, the latter mainly being informed from the transmission of Aristotelian logic.
Brian at 12:36PM on Nov 6th 2007
56. When I was ten my family used to talk about these two prized carvings of cherubs that they had, hand carved in great detail out of soap.
One day I carefully dabbed some water on my finger and tested a wing. It didn't feel soapy at all. I then noticed mold marks. And a label "Made in Japan" on the bottom. I carefully flexed a wing tip, and it flexed nicely. It wasn't soap. It was plastic. And it wasn’t carved. It was injection-molded.
I told my mom, tried to explain the facts as to why they couldn’t be soap, and it was like she couldn't hear me. I was just a kid, and she KNEW that they were soap, and I was just hitting her with way too much detail. Same with my aunt and my dad. But the cherubs weren't soap, and I know this today for a fact.
She didn't LIE when she told me that they were soap all those times, but it wasn't TRUE, and NOTHING THAT I COULD SAY could convince her that she was wrong. And yet she and the rest of my family were wrong. They just didn't SEE DETAILS in things like I did, so they were blind to it. Forever.
I learned that they were blind to many, many other things in addition to the "soap" cherubs that were not. One of them was the illogic of their religion.
Open your minds someday, christians. You're not seeing the plastic.
Brian at 12:43PM on Nov 6th 2007
57. Of course, anytime you make a blanket statement about a group, you can always point out exceptions to that statement, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the statement as it applies to the whole group. Take the statement that men are stronger than women. As a whole, men are stronger than women, the world’s strongest man is stronger than the world’s strongest woman, but there are certainly plenty of women who are a lot stronger than plenty of men. That sill doesn’t make the initial statement false.
The reason why religious folks as a whole are, on average, less intelligent than non-religious folks is two-fold. First, the more educated and successful you are, the less you need to rely on fairy tales. Why don’t you see horoscopes in Business Week, Scientific American, or the Wall Street Journal? People who feel they have less control over their lives are more likely to fall into the trap of religion because it makes them feel empowered. You notice, though, that generally their belief in fairy tales doesn’t really change their lot in life all that much, does it?
Second, because the people who created and promote religion know, at least sub-consciously, that real knowledge of the world leads away from religion, they strongly discourage it. Why does any substantial scientific break-through lead to condemnation from religious groups? Why don’t religions encourage adherents to look at their holy books critically? Because they’re afraid of knowledge. They hold their adherents in subjugation by considering knowledge to be sinful.
Aaron at 12:47PM on Nov 6th 2007
58. 49. To say that Christians are less educated and dumb are not factual.
---------------------------------------------
Hey! You moved this up! So now I have to comment on it again!
Nah, it comments on itself, doesn't it?
Brian at 12:54PM on Nov 6th 2007
59. This whole debate is stupid.
I thought many of you "aheists" were "people of science". Well, then ACT LIKE it. Or, more specifically, THINK LIKE IT!
You make claims based on questionable data. Most of this data is from surveys that rely on voluntary responses. And we all know how reliable surveys are!
Just, how do you determine if someone is "Christian" or a "Christian"? Do you even understand the difference?
What is the actual relationship or correlation between evangelical Christianity and "poor, uneducated, criminals"?
Is there a relationship involving the level of "devoutness"? After all, you can't blame Christianity if many Christians are "disobedient".
I would argue that the data makes no firm claim in either direction. (Which in itself is an indictment against Christians in America, because Christianity should be making a positive impact!)
But, even if good sound SCIENTIFIC research was done to confirm the correlation, then, as good scientists, you should be curious as to WHY? What are the forces and factors at play here?
Remember, a correlation is not the same as a causation!
So, I submit to Knight and Brian and Linda, that you get off you lazy, self-righteous butts and go visit some evangelical churches. I suggest at least 4 different churches, 2 visits each, and see if you can identify WHAT is going on in those churches that would result in "poorness", lack of education, and higher crime rates.
Or if the causation runs in the other direction, why are "poor, uneducated, criminals" more likely to be evangelical Christians?
Until you do that, then, you are the hypocrites. Until you do that, YOU can not consider yourself "people of science".
BTW - be very careful. Somwe of you are trending close to racist attitudes. While America is most "desegregated" on Sunday mornings, that does mean that many of those "poor, uneducated, criminal" evangelicals are black. Maybe that is why there is a correlation? Maybe the real social factors are not in the South, but in the racist North.
A coupe of points -
A) If the North was such a bastion of ciil rights and concern for slaces, then why did the Underground Railroad have to extend all the way into Canada?
B) Why are most "sundown towns" in the NORTH, not in the South?
Note - my neighbor, lives across the street, a black woman who marches with Dr. King, was born in Mississippi. Her family moved to Chicago to "escape racism". When she became an adult, she moved back to the South because the racism was less severe.
People - can you see what is going on here?
The "intellectuals", the "elite" from the North are the real sociopaths. They are the real racists and bigots. They want to divert attention from their own sociopathy by trying to put down the "poor uneducated South"!
ray at 12:56PM on Nov 6th 2007
60. Correction to #55, I should have written, "America is most "SEGREGATED" on Sunday mornings"
ray at 12:59PM on Nov 6th 2007