I debated atheist Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, yesterday on the Michael Medved radio show. It was a two hour debate, and conducted at a high level that is not characteristic of radio programs. The main focus of the debate was my bestselling book What's So Great About Christianity, and in the course of the discusson we covered a lot of topics from the fine-tuned universe to why humans evolved morality to whether Adam and Eve were real people.
Shermer, always ready with his ream of data, uncorked some fascinating statistics about how Christians are more prone to social pathologies than non-Christians. For example, the more-religious United States has higher crime rates than the less-religious Europe. In America, evangelical Christians are apparently more likely to be uneducated and to have higher violent crime rates than non-Christians. Shermer even cited a study showing that secular doctors were more likely to do voluntary work than Christian doctors. Shermer went on and on about all this, and I was waiting for him to reveal that Christians have a greater tendency to bestiality than secular folks, but to my surprise Shermer had no data on this subject.
Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America. But even the old statistics prove nothing, because the U.S. is an ethnically diverse society, immigrant societies always have higher crime rates, and European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South. One can hardly conclude that evangelical Christianity makes you poor and dumb. Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day.
Shermer and I will be debating December 5 at George Washington University and the public is invited. (I will post the venue and time on this blog.) We will also be debating December 9 at 2 pm at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California. Tickets are available for this event at a nominal price and you can find the details at skeptic.com. Seating is limited so book early.
Reader Comments ( Page 5 of 16)
61. Reply to: 48. The debate was interesting and broad-ranging, and you won hands down!
Interesting.
WHY do you think D'Souza won?
From what D'Souza wrote in today's blog, it sounds like Shermer won quite easily.
You can listen to the debate again (until they change the link) at
http://www.michaelmedved.com/
William Hays at 1:00PM on Nov 6th 2007
62. What is with all the hate speech against Christianity? We believe what we want to believe and you secular humanists bend over backwards to bash everything we hold dear. Christ is my savior and that drives you crazy. This blog is for civil and polite debate created by a man who is a Christian. You know what is going to be on this blog so why do come here to rant? If you don't agree with Christianity, go to some secular humanist website and rant about it.
Jeff Penter at 1:01PM on Nov 6th 2007
63. Aaron, your post 53 was beautifully written and incredibly concise. It's the unvarnished and unpopular truth, without a doubt. Christianity, like any system based on belief in untruths, is automatically opposed to science, which is only concerned with uncovering the truth.
Hey, a lot of people can't handle the truth. So they make shit up.
Brian at 1:01PM on Nov 6th 2007
64. Ray:
DD was the one that made the racist comment:
European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South.
Aaron at 1:03PM on Nov 6th 2007
65. DD once again argues against some point without refuting the factual basis of that point. Not much of a debater. DD has consistently said that our moral strictures and innate ability to behave morally flow exclusively from religious sources. Some 80% of people in this country identify themselves as religious, the majority being self-identified Christians. If our US crime rates and tendency towards violence exceeds that of other countries who are deemed less religious, then the questions begged by Shermer's data are certainly valid. How does DD's statement that we have black-on-white violence change the issue (remember 80& of all people claim to be religious)? What about black-on-balck violence and white-on-white violence....same thing, if 80% of these people claim to be religious, and religion is the supposed wellspring of morality, why the high levels of violence, DD? It seems to me that two obvious possibilies present: 1) people who are religious aren't actually any more moral than those who aren't (refuting DD's general stance on the issue) and/or 2) many, many, many, many people who claim to be religious actually aren't, in which case the "Moral Majority" is much smaller than we've been lead to believe. DD, pls either refute the opposing facts at hand in defense of your argument or just be quiet!!
John Galt at 1:32PM on Nov 6th 2007
66. "GET A BRAIN MORANS!" I would attribute poor grammar and spelling largely to that fact that the internet is where these two virtues go to die, but the truth is actually worse than that. Something is very wrong in this country when no one knows the difference between there/their/they're, or its/it's. English syntax is awkward, but gee whiz it's not that difficult.
Mokele Mbembe at 1:12PM on Nov 6th 2007
67. Athiests aren't violent? Hello, Stalin- the great godless society millions dead?
I guess the atheists are only smarter when is has nothing to do with history.
chuck at 1:14PM on Nov 6th 2007
68. Regardless of all the debate and discussion, it seems we have two groups of people in this world, those who believe in God and a Heaven and a Hell and those who don't. Here is the conclusion of the whole matter: When we come to the end of life, whose chances would we rather take. If the believer finds out that he/she is wrong and that there is no Heaven or Hell rhere is no cause for worry, but if the unbeliever comes to the end of life and finds out the he/she is wrong, then there is great cause for worry about eternity. So I ask again whose chances would you rather take? I choose to believe!
How about you?
J. Coyte Riley at 5:39PM on Nov 6th 2007
69. How is it that everyone can talk bad about Christians, but not about other minorities? funny, huh? I might not go to church, but I AM A CHRISTIAN! I beleive in Christ. If only you would read the Bible before you pass judgment. Yes, Christians sin. But guess what, they can ask God for forgiveness. It's not a Lazy religion, God is just so good, all he wants is to be in your heart. And If he was, you all wouldnt be such hateful people. And what does Iraq have to do with this discussion? Grow up, and let us worship how WE please.
Ashley at 1:19PM on Nov 6th 2007
70. So, I submit to Knight and Brian and Linda, that you get off you lazy, self-righteous butts and go visit some evangelical churches. I suggest at least 4 different churches, 2 visits each, and see if you can identify WHAT is going on in those churches that would result in "poorness", lack of education, and higher crime rates.
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You're an idiot if you assume that we haven't. I even moved to Texas for eight months, to Amarillo. I was considering living there, but it freaked me right out. WAY too much religion, WAY too many guns, and WAY too many idiots. It frankly scared the shit out of me, and contributes to my attitudes today greatly. It was a real wake-up call. This country NEEDS HELP! There's a cancer growing in the name of a good man that lived a long time ago, an excellent disguise indeed.
Most atheists, such as myself, have spent a LOT OF TIME thinking and analyzing faith and christianity. I myself was raised a roman catholic. So I have a first-hand view of one of the MILDER forms of the psychosis.
I personally am not even trying to link poorness and lack of education to christianity, or at least not nearly so much as DInesh seems to be doing in an attempt to stir up christians so that they'll buy his stupid book. I do link ignorance in general to it, since it does encourage people to not learn about science and the world. But I've never even tried to link poorness to it before this blog, and I didn't bring up the subject.
I have ZERO respect for fundamentalist christians and bible literalists and evangelicals. ZERO. I've already examined them, and found them lacking, and every time I check back, they're even baser and more ignorant and more dishonest and even more hypocritical amd even more LACKING. And I do check back, since I even examine even my own convictions regularly, in as detached a manner as I can muster. Do you? No, that would be against your BELIEFS.
Brian at 1:21PM on Nov 6th 2007
71. For what it's worth, I'm a genius (I.Q. of about 150), an attorney, and comfortably middle-class. And I am a Christian. Why? Because Christianity is true, and because -I- am a sinner.
Those who insist that Christianity is for losers are actually right; they just don't realize that we are ALL losers, ultimately. They themselves are also losers--as am I.
jkelleyjd at 5:51PM on Nov 6th 2007
72. I did not ask for the meaning or history of logic. I asked where logic (the ability to think and reason) came from. Or should I say where did Aristotle's ability to reason and think came from?
And I read through my first blog, I did not find any claim of smartness or intelligence on my part while in the process of making a statement which I knew was a fact. The assumption was yours.
As to the Christian workers and missionaries sharing the gospel and calling them selfish: they do it because they are just being obedient to Christ's command. Experiencing various trials and hardships for the sake of sharing the love of Christ, is this what you call selfishness? Whether people get coverted or not, it's still their choice. They are not forced to follow Christ.
L. Roberts at 1:36PM on Nov 6th 2007
73. Reply to: 58. What is with all the hate speech against Christianity? This blog is for civil and polite debate created by a man who is a Christian.
Really? Because I think this blog is just an excuse for a religious bigot to bash Atheists.
LINK: It must be noted that in all of Hitler's writings he never mentions Darwin or even Ernst Haeckel...
What, then, were Adolph Hitler's views, and on what did he base his racism and his strive for "improvement of the human species"?
HITLER: Everybody who has the right kind of feeling for his country is solemnly bound, each within his own denomination, to see to it that he is not constantly talking about the Will of God merely from the lips but that in actual fact he fulfils the Will of God and does not allow God's handiwork to be debased. For it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroys His work wages war against God's Creation and God's Will.
..
The result of all racial crossing is therefore in brief always the following:
Lowering of the level of the higher race;
Physical and intellectual regression and hence the beginning of a slowly but surely progressing sickness.
To bring about such a development is, then, nothing else but to sin against the will of the eternal creator.
- Mein Kampf; Adolph Hitler, 1925
LINK; In the Nazi era a great deal of Old Testament Scripture had been rejected by many liberal scholars, mainly in Germany.
LINK: Most of the "German Christians" -- those loyal to Hitler -- based their religious views on a kind of nationalistic nonsectarian ethic.
LINK: Aryan supremeacy based on Old Testament? IF the white race alone has descended from Adam, the other races are viewed as a prior creation.
Genesis 1:24, which describes the creation of animals and is prior to the creation of Adam, includes a description of all nonwhite races. In that list of created beings -- "cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth" -- they single out the word beast as a description of other races.
This of course means the Nazis believe the other races are inferior.
The Bible expands on the idea of "a chosen people", where genocide, slavery, and infanticide occur at the "command of God".
Exodus 11:
4 So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt-worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.
http://www.hearnow.org/id.html
http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/darwin_nazism.htm
.
William Hays at 1:32PM on Nov 6th 2007
74. If you allow yourself to become steeped in superstition, it should come as no surprise that there's a rift between your reality and actual reality.
Christianity encourages duplicitous thinking. Try to make sense of stuff like this:
Genesis 7:8, 9, 15
Of clean beast and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowl ... there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God commanded Noah.
But maybe not - maybe seven!
Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female.
Can God do Anything? Well sure!
Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27
With God all things are possible.
Jeremiah 32:27
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?;
Well maybe not Anything.........
1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Same with Jesus in his hometown:
Mark 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work
Well, surely there's only one god, right?
Isaiah 44:8
Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
What 'Us?'
This is to be expected since the Israelis worshipped a pantheon, the Elohim, and the Judeans worsipped Yahweh and others, and both systems preexisted in Sumerian legend long before the hyksos expulsion (the moses legends) and were documented in writing thousands of years before there was hebrew writing.
They did have gods and goddesses in common, like Asherah and both had legends like Lilith.
This is the biggest flipflop in the Bible, from Luke - Jesus reverses himself in one verse!
16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail
Matthew chimes in, too:
5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
more jots 'n tittles:
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
There are passages that support abortion
(moses is told not to number children under one year and Jesus says if you blaspheme the holy spirit it's better if you'd never been born)
and evolution
(ecclesiates says man is a beast and his fate is the fate of beasts and genesis says the earth, not god brought forth plants.
And more to support mass murder than I care to include. Mass murder is everywhere for any reason at all and jesus has come to FULFIL all that.
Or he didn't.
Or he did.
and on and on. If you're superstitious enough and dissociative enough to keep all that together, I'd question your ability to make sound reality-based decisions.
People tend to sort themselves out to some extent, so if you're lazy as others mentioned, and you don't care to examine the obvious moral relativism and worse yet, intellectual relativism that makes up this book of legends, I guess this appeals to you, but the closer you look at religion, the more it looks like what's in those quotes.
The only way to navigate this is through massive doses of both denial and superstition.
Or just learn the golden rule. I'ts not abrahamic in origin, it comes from earlier sources, but if you get it, and practice it, you can go home.
Clif Kuplen at 1:35PM on Nov 6th 2007
75. Responding to Aaron (60)
I do not know DD enough to say that he is not a racist. (Are any of us truly 100% innocent of racism?)
But, to make a comment about race and racism is not automatically a "racist" comment!
Your bias is showing....
Racism is not the only unacceptable prejudice and bias.
ray at 1:35PM on Nov 6th 2007