I debated atheist Michael Shermer, editor of Skeptic magazine, yesterday on the Michael Medved radio show. It was a two hour debate, and conducted at a high level that is not characteristic of radio programs. The main focus of the debate was my bestselling book What's So Great About Christianity, and in the course of the discusson we covered a lot of topics from the fine-tuned universe to why humans evolved morality to whether Adam and Eve were real people.
Shermer, always ready with his ream of data, uncorked some fascinating statistics about how Christians are more prone to social pathologies than non-Christians. For example, the more-religious United States has higher crime rates than the less-religious Europe. In America, evangelical Christians are apparently more likely to be uneducated and to have higher violent crime rates than non-Christians. Shermer even cited a study showing that secular doctors were more likely to do voluntary work than Christian doctors. Shermer went on and on about all this, and I was waiting for him to reveal that Christians have a greater tendency to bestiality than secular folks, but to my surprise Shermer had no data on this subject.
Actually U.S. crime rates today are not substantially higher than those of Europe. That's because there has been a marked decline in violent crime in America. But even the old statistics prove nothing, because the U.S. is an ethnically diverse society, immigrant societies always have higher crime rates, and European countries typically don't have the black-and-white problem that is peculiar to America. Yes, evangelical Christians in America may be poorer and less educated than non-Christians, but that may be because evangelical Christians are more concentrated in the South. One can hardly conclude that evangelical Christianity makes you poor and dumb. Finally C.S. Lewis made the point that a religion like Christianity which advertises itself as a remedy for human sin and brokenness is bound to attract more people who find themselves to be sinful and broken. Christianity attracts sinners for the same reason that doctors attract patients: one can hardly hang out at the doctor's office and then condemn the service because predominantly messed-up people keep showing up day after day.
Shermer and I will be debating December 5 at George Washington University and the public is invited. (I will post the venue and time on this blog.) We will also be debating December 9 at 2 pm at Cal Tech in Pasadena, California. Tickets are available for this event at a nominal price and you can find the details at skeptic.com. Seating is limited so book early.
Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 16)
76. Reply to: (Ashley) 63. How is it that everyone can talk bad about Christians, but not about other minorities? funny, huh? I might not go to church, but I AM A CHRISTIAN! I beleive in Christ. If only you would read the Bible before you pass judgment. Yes, Christians sin. But guess what, they can ask God for forgiveness. It's not a Lazy religion, God is just so good, all he wants is to be in your heart. And If he was, you all wouldnt be such hateful people. And what does Iraq have to do with this discussion? Grow up, and let us worship how WE please. (end)
I think you need to consider one thing.
D'Souza has challenged Atheists to defend their contribution to humanity.
Now, are you saying we can't tell you what Atheism is? Or why it's better than Christianity?
What I'm saying is, Christianity is a con game. They have fooled you.
If you would simply READ the Bible with an open mind, you would NEVER be a Christian.
Please quit asking Atheists to read the Bible. We have read the Bible.
When D'Souza discusses the origin of the universe in his book, he makes several basic mistakes that prove he has NOT read the Bible.
I'm talking about an End of the World cult.
A cult that attracts new members by saying "God has given us a date when the world will end, and only the members of my cult will be given Eternal Life after the world ends."
Christianity is nonsense. On every possible level.
If you're readng this blog, then you should give Atheists a chance to defend themselves against D'Souza's lies and slander.
William Hays at 1:37PM on Nov 6th 2007
77. Brian,
I'm sorry you went through that in Amarillo. I'm a Christian and I wouldn't like that environment either. But you can't let that experience dictate your beliefs.
Believing in Christ is personal. No group can convince me. Groups can help sometimes, but ultimately it is 100% personal.
And for the record, I firmly believe that Science is wonderful. It has helped out humanity in many ways. On top of that, as Science continues to grow with technology, they are able to advance their Theories on basically everything. What is funny, is that while it is advancing, it's making Creation sound even more plausible than before. Just my opinion.
Also to William Hays. I don't know if you'll read this, but I've enjoyed your posts from previous blogs. You know your bible. Impressive. You know, I didn't respond to your IQ question over the weekend, but I did get it right! It sucks that you find it a Con Game.
In my humble opinion, I believe there is one explanation that hampers a non-believer from Believing. And that is "Pride". Pride is a son of a "B". It's get's in the way of everything. I should know, because I was a non believer for most of my life. You have to let yourself go.
Accidents
Coincedance
Love
Hope
Funny
Forgiveness
These can't be explained. It's God's way of showing Himself through you and your experiences.
Linda,
Love your posts too! Very informative and you debate with Class.
Knight,
Don't come back with the "Who created God" stuff.lol My five senses and Brain Compacity doesn't enable me to answer that. I'll know when I die.
If there are any typos, please forgive me. I'm at work, and wanted to just send this message out.
All the Best,
Botts
Botts at 2:27PM on Nov 6th 2007
78. 63. How is it that everyone can talk bad about Christians, but not about other minorities? funny, huh? I might not go to church, but I AM A CHRISTIAN! I beleive in Christ. If only you would read the Bible before you pass judgment. Yes, Christians sin. But guess what, they can ask God for forgiveness. It's not a Lazy religion...
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A. Christians are emphatically NOT a minority. They're the majority, to the minority's chagrin, since they're so intolerant of others not like themselves.
B. Christianity is a Belief System, a Religion, and not an ethnic group. You are comparing apples to orangutans. You can not "convert" from black to white, for example. Therefore it is a chosen thing, voluntary. Like Paris Hilton's lack of education. We make fun of that, too.
C. Being black, or mexican, or any other race (including white) does not cause you to become deluded into thinking that reality isn't worth learning about. Christianity does.
D. Christianity is inherently dangerous to human progress. Being a member of an ethnic group doean't make you antithetical to human progress.
E. Christianity is involved in politics, and brings out huge numbers of voters that vote based on beliefs and not facts, faith and not observation, hope and not logic. Only a belief system, a religion, can do something that dangerous. And we resent it. You're trying to dumb us down to your level, instead of trying to catch up.
As to whether it's a lazy religion, you made the point better than I could have, unintentionally of course.
"Yes, Christians sin. But guess what, they can ask God for forgiveness. It's not a Lazy religion..."
So let me get this straight. Say I'm Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, living in hiding as the head of my baptist congregation. All I have to do to be square with God is to repent in my heart, and I never have to suffer the consequences of my actions in the real world, AND I get into heaven? GREAT! Heck, I've killed ten so far, but if I repent, I can think of myself as a GOOD CHRISTIAN, and that way I don't have to suffer the GUILT of my own actions! And if I ever kill again, I can always repent again! Cool! Sign me up!
No consequences = Lazy. Your religion makes people feel okay, even GOOD, about their sins, or even deludes them into believing that they haven't REALLY sinned, when they should be trying to make amends. A truly repentant man, if he is now a good man after killing ten women just because he repented, should then TURN HIMSELF IN to the authorities for his crimes, for the sake of the lives that he's taken, and of the families of the murdered women, no?
Brian at 1:47PM on Nov 6th 2007
79. Re: Chuck in note # 62...you said "Athiests aren't violent? Hello, Stalin- the great godless society millions dead? I guess the atheists are only smarter when is has nothing to do with history."
This strawman argument has been made by DD as well in various debates. It's so transparent. Stalin was indeed a murderous tyrant...one of the worst in history. However, its a real stretch to say that he perpetrated his heineous acts "in the name of Atheism" as you imply. He did those things for political expediency and as a means to control the population and to stay in power, NOT in support of a religious view (of which, atheism is one). On the other hand, the Crusades, which slaughtered 1000's of innocents, were indeed carried out in the name of religion. As William Hays so clearly points out in item 65, genocide by Hitler was carried out partly in fulfillment of religious ideology. Why can't you just face it.... the adherence to religious doctrine doesn't confer morality anymore than taking an atheistic view confers immorality.
John Galt at 2:10PM on Nov 6th 2007
80. From Ray;"So, I submit to Knight and Brian and Linda, that you get off you lazy, self-righteous butts and go visit some evangelical churches."
HAH! I tried going to a Baptist church a long time ago. I sang in the choir. I opened myself up to possibilities. But I found there was no place for me at that church because I "would not witness for christ". I found that my questions made them uncomfortable.
Since then, I have attended protestant churches, buddhist temples, unitarian churches.
And Ashley: I have read the bibles cover to cover.
The final result of my quest? Religion: it's all a con game. Perpetration of fantasy.
My spirituality comes from within; my love for my fellow humans is based on the moral, atheistic upbringing my parents gave to me. I am so grateful that I was not indoctrinated at a young age like so many others.
Linda at 1:55PM on Nov 6th 2007
81. Responding to Linda (70)
OKAYYYYYYYYYYY... but you ignored the question. Real smart there!
If you have that experience, then you offer some reasons or causations between evangelical Christianity and "economics, education, and crime".
What did you hear or observe in those churches that might explain such a correlation?
You attended non-Christian services? Good. What did the Buddhists and Unitarians do differently that might explain this alleged correlation?
If all religions are a "con game", then, why the claim of a correlation between evangelical Christianity and "economics, education, and crime"?
Do you realize that you are supporting DD's claim?
ray at 2:09PM on Nov 6th 2007
82. Bo your comment reflects such ignorance if I were you I would not have posted this. Who was C.L. Lewis, who was Martin Luther, who was Josephus, who was Aquinus. Those of today: Who was Billy Gramham, who is Rick Warren (The Purpose Driven Life)and so many others. In many Christian churchs you have to go through months of classes and teaching just as those who convert to Judaism. Many of our colleges were born out of Christianity. These various churches the Church of Constantinople,
The Church of Alexandria, The Church of Antioc,
The Church of Jerusalem, The Church of Moscow,
The Church of Georgia, The Church of Serbia,
The Church of Romania, The Church of Bulgaria. All of these are known for great teaching of the Word of God. There are born again Christians in every vocation in life from presidents, leaders government, leaders of large corporations, medical people, scientist, inventors and this is because one realizes that God not only saves but He has put purpose, vision, and gifts in our lives. When you let Jesus into your heart it drives you to study the Word of God. Not only using the Bible but using commentaries, lexicons, dictionaries, concordences, and the many Biblical translations. Where do you live that you have such an ignorant prospective of born again Christians. Or are you just ignorantly closed minded. You must renew your mind and look at the world from a more positive prospective.
r. roberts at 2:18PM on Nov 6th 2007
83. Hmmm let's see; D'Vinci, Princess Diana, Edison, The Wright Brothers, JFK, Shakespeare, Isaac Newton, Bill Gates, F Scott Fitzgerald, Nelson Rockafeller, Ted Turner, ALL OF THE USA'S PRESIDENTS!!!!!! I could go on but that's is just off the top of my head. Shermer is a typical Christian hating, pro-Jewish, basher. I say Pro-Jewish because why doesnt he go around and describe Jews as neurotic, fixated on Kosher food practices to a point of obsessive compulsion? Well, he would be ruined. But - the Jewish controlled media ALLOWS him to Christian Bash. There is no eveidence of any truth of what he says. Most of the worlds wealth intelligencia are Christian. It is a fact; all of European History revolved around Christianity. He is typical in that he HATES this fact and wants to help dismantle Christianity in favor of "Sacred" Judeism. Christ made Judaic traditions of an eye for eye bearable by introducing the concept of forgiveness and peace. Someday - when Christianity is no longer under attack I will have to learn how to do that.
Taylor at 2:29PM on Nov 6th 2007
84. BELOW IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH JEWS AND JUDAISM - THEY ARE CRUEL, ELITIST AND UNKIND - THESE TRAITS ARE ANTI-THETICAL TO CHRISTIANITY WHICH IS WHY CHRISTIANITY IS SUPERIOR TO JUDAISM. A PERSON SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE "TESTED" TO BE LOVED. THANKS FOR OUTING JUDAISM FOR WHAT IT IS - A WEIRD CLUB OF NEUROTICS WITH CHIPS ON THEIR SHOULDERS. read the following "When one converts to Judaism, one must study for many, many hours, meet with a rabbi many times, do a huge amount of reading and research, learn rituals, songs, and prayers, and may even have to take classes. Then the person appears before a Bet Din, or religious court, and is evaluated to see if the conversion process has been done correctly.
Do you know why Christianity is so appealing to the uneducated? Because it's a LAZY religion. You don't need to study, you don't need to be tested or evaluated, you don't need to learn vast amounts of history or ritual or information. Hell, you don't even need to crack the textbook (Bible)! All you have to do is "let Jesus into your heart (wha'ever)", and then pick and choose whatever scripture works for you and go about and "spread the gospel" that you don't even fully comprehend.
J Boyd at 8:13AM on Nov 6th 2007"
taylor at 2:30PM on Nov 6th 2007
85. "In my humble opinion, I believe there is one explanation that hampers a non-believer from Believing. And that is "Pride". Pride is a son of a "B"."
In my humble opinion, you're dead wrong. To me, and every other atheist that I've ever met, the only thing that prevents us from believing is refusing to believe something on Faith (yes, with a capital "F"). There is no pride involved in asking for direct evidence before you believe someone's claims. I'm not "proud" to be an atheist. I am one because it's my nature to require direct evidence before Belief.
I'm not saying that all atheists are how I described -- only every single one that I've ever met.
Tem at 2:39PM on Nov 6th 2007
86. Darkness of knight, #25
It takes repentence of sin and faith from the heart for one to be a true believer.
It takes no faith to be atheist, because atheistism is the belief of no God.
It does however take educated people to believe that matter suddenly appeared.
A bang followed their after.
It was responsible for the evolution of the universe
All life form origianted from a organism, which some how, came to life by its own will, with the abillity to naturally select.
This process took over billions of years to reach the stage it is in at the moment, According to the educated minds of today.
One would think, their would be evidence under every rock, And the notion wouldn't be to difficult to prove, I mean after all their should be billions of years of proof laying around everywere.
The fact is, their is no proof of the big bang theory, or life on earth, origianting from from non-life.
And the atheist think the christians are dumb,lol.
Observant at 2:43PM on Nov 6th 2007
87. Whether it's Allah,Jesus,Yahweh,the"Goddess",some vague New Agey derivitive "Higher Power",the "State",the "Race",money or love-ALL Gods are fetishized escapes for the weak and terrified herd. At best religion is pathetic,at worst it is sadistic,divisive and dangerous.A true athiest worhips nothing-which never fails to torment and anger all of the "believing" peasants...
gianni at 2:48PM on Nov 6th 2007
88. Reply to: Also to William Hays. I don't know if you'll read this, but I've enjoyed your posts from previous blogs. You know your bible. Impressive. You know, I didn't respond to your IQ question over the weekend, but I did get it right! It sucks that you find it a Con Game.
Thnx. As I said, I don't mind losing an argument on a Message Board as long as I learn something.
Just found this on OregonLive and it seems relevant:
One of the biggest shocks of my life came when I was listening to a taped debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. I was very surprised by Craig's claims that the New Testament's description of events surrounding Jesus' death (such as his burial by Joseph of Arimathea) is considered demonstrably historical by the consensus of scholarship. But I almost fell out of my chair when I heard him say this:
"On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This is a fact that is almost universally acknowledged by New Testament scholars today."
In his rebuttal Craig reiterates that the claims he had made, including this one, are "established historical facts."
I couldn't believe this. Everything I had heard about "what the scholars say" was exactly opposed to this.... most scholars do not believe that Jesus was resurrected. But if they accept that Jesus himself appeared to groups of people after his death, then this is essentially an acceptance of the resurrection isn't it?
http://www.oregonlive.com/weblogs/religionblog/index.ssf?/mtlogs/olive_religion/archives/2004_07.html
Let me explain WHY it's a Con Game.
And why William Lane Craig was wrong.
Jesus was a real human being. After his death, the people who knew him wrote down some of their memories. Some of them were compiled into an early version of "The Gospel of Mark." The name "Mark" wasn't on it anywhere.
After the people who actually knew Jesus had died (by 70 AD) there didn't seem to be much purpose to those accounts. So, someone got the idea of ADDING stuff. Usually by writing a NEW STORY at the end of the existing story.
Here's the end of ONE version:
Mark 16:8 And they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
At one point, the story ended there. However, a few decades later, the Church decided that the resurrected Jesus had appeared to the apostles:
Luke 24:9 Then they returned from the tomb and told these things to the eleven and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene... who told these things to the apostles.
All of our surviving New Testatments were written after 250 AD. It's impossible to say that a passage wasn't added in 50 AD, or 70 AD, or even 120 AD.
William Hays at 2:52PM on Nov 6th 2007
89. Many will call out his name and claim to know him... they will cry "but Lord Lord" and he will say, depart from me I know you not! People can say what they want, does this make them Christians? We all better "check ourselves" and ask God for a reality check.. for the truth of who or what we are.. Do You Know him? Does he know you? these are the questions we should be asking....
Brian4lions at 3:16PM on Nov 6th 2007
90. Observant: Even if God's existence was strongly suggested by science, it has nothing to do with Christianity being right, nor would it endorse any religion. I believe in a Creator, I just don't believe in religious dogma. You can call atheists dumb for not seeing evidence in God, but it doesn't mean Christianity isn't.
Mokele Mbembe at 3:30PM on Nov 6th 2007