Imagine if one of the world's leading Christians--say C.S. Lewis a generation ago, or Billy Graham now--were to reject his religious beliefs and become a atheist. It would be big news! The New York Times would be all over it, for sure, and the question would be why a man who has devoted his life to God would now turn against Him? In sum, the focus would be on what were the reasons for the conversion and on what's so bad about Christianity.
Contrast this with the New York Times' approach to the conversion of philosopher Anthony Flew. Flew has been, for the past half-century, the world's leading advocate of atheism. No one has so relentlessly espoused the atheist cause, and no one has been more anthologized and eulogized by the atheist community. Other twentieth-century philosophers, such as Martin Heidegger and Bertrand Russell, were unbelievers but they did not make atheism central to their philosophical work as did Flew. Flew's atheism long precedes that of latecomers like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens.
Now, in his early eighties, Flew has rejected atheism and said he believes that God exists. He does not espouse the Christian God, but calls himself a Deist. He says he has a lifelong commitment to following the evidence where it leads, and that new advances in the sciences have shown him that materialism and Darwinism simply cannot account for the world as it is and life as it is. Examining the fine-tuning of the universe and the mind-boggling complexity of the cell (a compexity that evolution presumes but cannot explain), Flew now believes that the design of the universe requires a designer. He gives his reasons in a new book There Is a God which is co-authored with Roy Abraham Varghese.
When something like this happens, the New York TImes goes into mafia-style intellectual hit mode. They selected Mark Oppenheimer of Yale, who visited Flew in England and wrote a long piece in the November 4, 2007 New York Times Magazine suggesting that Flew converted because he is, well, senile. The basic idea is that Flew has lost his mind and can't remember anything, and when Christian apologists like Varghese were nice to him Flew basically surrendered to them and let them write his book.
The only evidence that Flew has lost his mind is that he's 84 years old. A man of 84 naturally loses some of his memory, especially for names, but this does not mean he has lost his marbles. Flew's own writings of the past few years are all entirely coherent and employ sophisticated philosophical vocabulary. While Flew seems to have asked his collaborator Varghese to write a draft of his life story, it was Flew who reviewed and approved the final contents. There is nothing in the Times' article that shows Flew to be incapable of a reasoned change of mind and heart.
I realize that atheists--including those at the New York Times--are embarassed at having to surrender one of their most stalwart champions to theism. Maybe they too should consider following the evidence where it leads? Too closed-minded to consider Flew's arguments, these fellows would much rather belittle the intellectual capacity of the man they once revered. Hell hath no fury like an atheist scorned.
Reader Comments ( Page 83 of 84)
1231. Not simply judging others as evil, but judging them evil because they either believe in the "wrong god" or don't believe at all. Further, all are judged "sinners" by use of the Nirvanna Fallacy: judging reality by a mythical standard.
Knight_of_BAAWA at 11:51AM on Nov 20th 2007
1232. for 1223:
Laws, mores, customs and folkways are human concepts. So is evil, and for that matter, so is religion. To pretend they're other than that is anthropomorphization.
Were the permian and cambrian mass extinctions moral? evil? The concept is meaningless.
You can write millions of words, but it always boils down to wishful thinking and superstition.
You can't use syllogistic logic to address the issue of universal truths that are purely human concepts.
Nor can you address irresistable forces logically. If god is all powerful, can he defeat himself?
that's what happens when you try to address absolutes like an all powerful god in human language.
Creationism has no basis in fact.
It is in fact a logical and physical impossibility and an admitted fabrication.
Since it is 100% superstition it can 'explain' anything by saying it's too complicated to understand so god did it. But since it is wholly superstition it can predict or produce nothing.
What it will do is enclose you in a dogmatic box that lets very little in. If you buy creationism it's already done that.
Creationists can't manage their god very well. He keeps letting humans discover things that diminish his probability. So a lot of them want to help god out by attacking knowledge and ultimately civilization as though an all powerful universal deity couldn't do that by himself.
Talking about moral absolutes makes as much sense as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Clif Kuplen at 12:59PM on Nov 20th 2007
1233. Is the morality of religion absolute? Do we still use stoning as a punishment? Even the church has adapted over time.
a born atheist at 2:18PM on Nov 20th 2007
1234. sun god, moon god, fire god, water god; hey, god is make believe.. deal with it..
bilmirr at 9:16PM on Nov 20th 2007
1235. I have to admit this has been 1 of the if not the best discussion on here to date. Unlike the Brittany filled crap thats the norm.
As for me this is something I've struggled with my whole life. Is He or isn't He real.Evidence can show both. I mean to think why would God care about something so insignificant in the universe or the scheme of things may just be our humanistic way of viewing it.He sees it how he sees it no matter how insignificant we may seem to us. Humnanistic inferiority complex.I look at us and think we HADDDDD to have been created,but by what??? God??? Maybe aliens who have existed for millions if not billions of years and technologies that we can't even begin to imagine. Maybe God's an alien I mean who knows,and if he does exist then why does He stay so quiet and not give right out evidence? Why leave it to question then punish us for not believing. So then he is more evil God or satan? This is what plagues me day to day minute to minute.
Tony at 7:29AM on Nov 21st 2007
1236. I have to admit this has been 1 of the if not the best discussion on here to date. Unlike the Brittany filled crap thats the norm.
As for me this is something I've struggled with my whole life. Is He or isn't He real.Evidence can show both. I mean to think why would God care about something so insignificant in the universe or the scheme of things may just be our humanistic way of viewing it.He sees it how he sees it no matter how insignificant we may seem to us. Humnanistic inferiority complex.I look at us and think we HADDDDD to have been created,but by what??? God??? Maybe aliens who have existed for millions if not billions of years and technologies that we can't even begin to imagine. Maybe God's an alien I mean who knows,and if he does exist then why does He stay so quiet and not give right out evidence? Why leave it to question then punish us for not believing. So then he is more evil God or satan? This is what plagues me day to day minute to minute.
Tony at 7:35AM on Nov 21st 2007
1237. its funny that people care so much about the choices that role models make, that if someone of such high standings that upheld a strong bias towards a cause that he changed people later changes to the other side of the fence it "takes a toll" on fellow followers. obvious to say as all people that fear they are close to death choose to grasp onto the only hope they have of a continued life. as with all believers of faith. most all afterlife based faiths are an insurance plan of immortality.
ahpeup at 5:27PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1238. ATHEISTS ARE IMAGINARY
Atheists and Skeptics invent unintelligent scenarios for the originsof the universe and manufacture make-believe "gods" (created in their
own image) that submit to their own will and self-centered desires only to accuse their idol of great evil then have the nerve of accuse
Christians of serving the very same "god" that atheists have imagined! (i.e. their so-called "flying spaghetti monster")
All human misconceptions about God are based on: an attempt to approach Him on ones own terms, conform Him into a being filled with human vices; reduce Him into an impersonal force easily manipulated by human will; or elevating the created order equivocal with the transcendent creator as if all physical substance of the universe is eternal.
Instead of seeking to know the one and only God who created this Earth, only to discover that it has been affected by humanity’s own evil, atheists seek to condemn Him in order to justify their lifestyle of defiance. () The atheists are only right in this sense: the god that atheists have invented in their own minds is a mere reflection of their own evil heart. The Atheist’s god was manufactured to justify their personal rebellion against the Holy God, who will by nature hold them accountable for their crimes against Him. The Atheist’s god DOES NOT exist. The One and only Holy Creator subsist necessarily.
In reality, ATHEISTS DO NOT EXIST. They are just people who don't want to believe that which they know must exist despite the scientific evidence of a fine-tuned universe. They are the epitome of superstitious as they have great faith in chemical chance and mutational luck. By arrogantly rejecting and avoiding that uncaused transcendent intelligent God whom they already know subsists, they have unwittingly labeled themselves an ignoramus (agnostic).
http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
prffsrx at 8:26PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1239. I don't think people lack common sense just because they don't believe in God. The Bible says that it is beyond the natural mind's ability to "know" God. Jesus himself told Peter he knew who he ( Jesus) was because the Father revealed it to him. fellow Christians, please remember that it is the free gift that is given and not by works and try to be a little more humble and gracious in your comments and attitudes. As to the rest of you please know that "W" is not a great example of what it is to be Christian. As a Christian I am horrified that I ever voted for this war-monger.
As to the Atheist turned Deist, I hope he makes it all the way in his journey to truth and meets the one, true God.
dawn at 9:22PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1240. 1227. Why is it so hard for believers in God to understand that moral questions can be resolved by the simple relativistic logic & secular genius of the Golden Rule?
Treat others as you wish to be treated.
fabio said........
Don't do things to people you wouldn't want done to you.
Is anyone so dense they can't figure this out?
fabio at 9:15AM on Nov 20th 2007
LOL fabio; the "Golden Rule" originated with Christ, it was one of his admonitions to his followers. In your effort to dissuade Christians from Biblical morality you suggested they follow Christ's teachings. Can anyone say "IRONIC" ?
dawn at 10:07PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1241. Oh my poor dear Dawn... how you have been misinformed. The Golden Rule predates Christ by many centuries. Christ paraphrased a very old ideology. It was very old even in HIS day.
Also can you not see that the Golden Rule is not a religious ideology at all? It is an example of RELATIVE morality - a secular ideology that does not recognize nor require any religious belief. (did you even read the post?), quite unlike the ABSOLUTE morality handed down by God, that theistic religions teach.
God doesn't deal in relative morality, does he?
fabio at 10:22PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1242. No He doesn't deal in relativism. But He isn't the heavy handed, Vandyke bearded being that He is perceived to be. The only people Christ berated were the "religious " persons of his day. People tend towards the "rules" because it's easier to follow rules than to actively pursue God's heart.
I know that's a rather indirect response to your comment. Perhaps Jesus was upholding a good teaching that God had planted long before. I confess I'm not a history buff.
As for being deceived well....
I used to be more like you. In fact I was quite opposed to Christianity. My God doth have a sense of humor and a lot of mercy. I met Him, quite similarly to the Apostle Paul actually. Kind of hard to deny someone's existence when you meet them. I don't expect you to believe that and that's quite alright. I wouldn't. It makes absolutely no sense to the logical mind. I didn't arrive among the believers because of logic, but in the face of the evidence I encountered it would now be quite illogical for me not to belive. Those that walk away have simply been involved in a philosophy, they haven't actually had a relationship with Jesus Christ. As the old saying goes " Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than being in a garage makes you a car".
Enjoy your own deception my friend. Though for your sake I hope it is short lived.
dawn at 10:56PM on Nov 22nd 2007
1243. I, too, thank God for America too, not only for the freedoms we enjoy relative to most nations, but our standard of living. That's different from saying that America is living in all that Godly a fashion now, either in terms of its personal lifestyle (porn, homos, Wall Street scandals, etc.) or Federal policies towards 'outsiders' either now (the idiotic, insane, ignorant war in Iraq) or in the past (slavery, genocide against the Native Americans, various wars of Imperialism against Canada in 1812, Mexico in 1846, against Southerners in 1861 despite the fact that Brazil later got rid of slavery without 650,000 people having to die over it, against Spain and the Philipppines in 1898, and our more recent World Wars and Third World Wars - all wars since WWII have been Third World Wars). What's for sure, however, is that most people in most other nations wish they lived here instead of there, and it's NOT because we stole everything we have and they simply want to get some of it back, but instead because we PRODUCED a high standard of living largely DESPITE, rather than BECAUSE, of the various Third World Wars we've fought lately or even in the past (our own imperialisms, not to mention those of other nations, have usually been a net drain on the national treasury even when the bennies, e.g., Congolese rubber and minerals in the case of the Belgian empire, are weighed in).
I hope those of you who have been debating God's existence will be blessed enough to have the direct experience I had with God in 1992, where I got the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues. You do have to seek after God, however, and He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. My life hasn't always been perfect since that moment, but I've had inner peace relative to my previous state.
Robert Edward Johnson at 3:35AM on Nov 24th 2007
1244. What about Dan Barker? He founded the Freedom From Religion Foundation. He's one of the smartest people in the world (a member of the Prometheus Organization, which is far more selective than even MENSA).
He was a die-hard Christian. When he was younger he wrote plays and songs that were evangelical. Until, I believe (and you'll want to check on the exact age) his 20s. Around that time he came to the conclusion that none of it made any sense and freed himself from Christianity.
So are you going to play the "delusional" card on him for realizing religion is bunk? The "brilliant madman" card? He's a little too young to be senile.
Aaron at 11:26AM on Nov 26th 2007
1245. I had much rather die thinking that there is a GOD than die thinking there isn't and find out there was all along! Therefore I choose to believe there is a GOD!
E. Jean Sharpe at 12:09PM on Nov 26th 2007