1. What a country! Health care for everyone! Prisoners treated like human beings.

America needs a serious national dialogue on our prison systems. They aren't working. Our "lock 'em up and throw away the key" mentality isn't working and never has.

I don't know what the population of Norway is, but most any social problem could be alleviated if there just weren't so damned many humans. The U.S. is over-populated. Our prisons are so full that "rehabilitation" isn't an issue.

Captain Negative at 11:02PM on Nov 22nd 2007

2. I can see how Moore would support the idea of prisoners being given week-long furloughs: Sure will save money on the petrol bill for those conjugal visits.
Live in a land of semi-communism with "foo-foo" punishments for violent criminals? No thanks.

Well, once again the Captain has posted another provocative "deep thought" response. Hate to sound like a cliche,' but would you want a person who just hacked up one of your family members, to be taking week-day trips to Disney, only to be "grounded" on the weekends?

What's so great about Norway, other than liberal "heaven?" Not much being produced there other than a couple of cruise ships....but that's what you get when everything is handed to you; no creativity or incentive to do anything other than stare at the sky and chew on a few hayseeds. Speaking of "ships,"--you may want to check out that starboard 'list' Capeetan!!

lizard at 10:07AM on Nov 24th 2007

3. That is just ridiculous!!!
Here's a good one for the wierdo on your list:
http://www.fakebuddy.com

Jackie at 2:13PM on Nov 24th 2007

4. lizard sees, "communism" everywhere. No surprise. You wingnuts are very good at creating nightmare scenarios, aren't you?

If left to you, we'd still be hacking off the hands of pickpockets.

Are you really trying to tell me that our prison system is working, lizard?

Captain Negative at 4:20PM on Nov 24th 2007

5. Oh, lizard, I forgot.

Not for a moment do I believe that the U.S. of A. will ever be so forward thinking as Norway. Too many of your ilk running things in this country.

But it works for them. I'm surprised you didn't say it works because Norway is such a lilly-white place.

We've got to keep those Norwegian immigrants out of our country to protect it from "progrssives."

And lest you forget, lizard...

“The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Usama Bin Laden to 9/11.”
FBI spokesman, Chief of Investigative Publicity Rex Tomb. June 2005

Captain Negative at 4:52PM on Nov 24th 2007

6. Having lived in Europe for several years (Iceland) it should be noted in ALL these documentaries (or mockumentaries, either one) that the cultures there work "better" than ours because theirs are HOMOGENIOUS. (For you in Rio Lindo, that menas the people all speak the same language, believe mostly the same things, eat the same foods, worship in the same churches, etc. You do NOT get public services in any language but the national language. You go to school in the national language. If you don't speak the national language YOU pay for the interpreter.

Bill at 10:19PM on Nov 24th 2007

7. Moore's narration was deliberately tongue-in-cheek(y). For the sake of its comedic value he kept the story about the chain saw murderer putting his talent to work in the forest. To most people, including Norweigians,that would be considered over-the-top cartoonish. And thus, given the circumstances, inappropriate and embarrassing. It was Moore's take on "not all is right in paradise."

I worked in France for one year. Europeans consider it important to balance their lives between work/family/duty and pleasure. There is no "coffee to go in France." Coffee is time set aside for its enjoyment,for relaxing and conversing with friends/coworkers/ et al. Consuming coffee because you are in a hurry does not translate to most european cultures.Conversely, Americans consider that attitude foreign, lazy, selfish. Thus the schism between that continent and this one will continue to be irreparable.

boredwell at 2:43AM on Nov 25th 2007

8. I have to agree that our "justice system" is not working. But, the evidence suggests that the real problems have little to do with how we operate our prisons.

First, for those who criticize our prison system, have you ever been inside one of our prisons?

My father was the dentist at a minimum security prison. As 10-year old boy, I used to ride my bike to the front gate of the prison, wave to a guard and walk right on in. I felt safe walking around the inmates. Inmates would work many different jobs outside the gate without any supervision.

Again, it was a MINIMUM SECURITY prison.

Per the "deleted" scene, the speaker noted that the inmates were serving the last portion of their sentences.

I would suggest that these inmates had demonstrated their willingness to "conform".

The "deleted scene" does not indicate how Norway treats inmates early in their prison term, nor, how they treat those who do not demonstrate willingness to "rehabilitate".

There is a lot of debate about "rehabilitation". The problem is, you can not rehabilitate someone who does not want to change. Many in our society see prison as a "badge of honor". Thanks to certain "liberal" philosophies, the notion of shame escapes many offenders. Again, their "honor" or "standing up to the man" is more important than respecting others.

In prisons with a lot of interation between inmates (i.e., less "restrictive"), the stronger brutalize the weaker. The only way to really protect the weaker is to make the prisons more restrictive, with less interaction, but that seems counter to what the minimum security prisonss (here and Norway) suggest. What it boils down to: rehabilitation vs safety (inmate & prison employee).

The "deleted" scene noted that Norway has a very low murder rate. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which came first in Norway, "low murder rate" or "effective and humane prisons"?

Moore's observations are valid, but, no intelligent and honest person will suggest that making our prisons more humane will effectively reduce crime rates nor the rate of recidivism.

This is an extremely complex problem, many years in the making, with many considerations, and the solution will be equally complex and time-consuming.

And we can not deny that the racial and ethnic mix in the USA is a big source of the problems. Many of the inmates experienced racial and ethnic friction before they were incarcerated, and being thrown into a prison only increases the friction.

ray at 3:07AM on Nov 25th 2007

9. Found this on internet:
http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/00/02/fenglev_en/main.html

Living conditions in prisons, 2003

Living condition problems among inmates
Inmates in Norwegian prisons have problems in several areas. Seven out of ten were unemployed at the time of imprisonment, nearly half have lower secondary school as their highest education, and two out of five live below the poverty level. These are some of the results of a survey among inmates in Norwegian prisons, conducted by Statistics Norway for the Fafo Institute for Applied Social Science.

Living conditions for inmates in Norwegian prisons are far worse than for the population at large. The majority of inmates are men aged 25–44 (65 per cent). They report difficult and complex living conditions. Many were unemployed and without permanent accommodation before imprisonment. Only half have completed education beyond lower secondary school and 25 per cent often have problems covering current expenses. Almost one third of the inmates suffer from mental health problems and approximately the same number have not been visited in prison in the last three months. Three out of four say that they have problems on at least two of these areas.


*** Difficult childhood

There is an evident correlation between problems while growing up and problems as an adult. Three out of ten had been in contact with the child welfare authorities before the age of 16 and many grew up in families with financial problems, unstable living conditions, abuse, illness and drug problems. More than two thirds of the inmates have experienced problems in one or more of these areas.

*** Opposite education pattern

Education levels among inmates in Norwegian prisons are just about the opposite from the rest of the population. Four out of ten have lower secondary school as their highest education, whereas this is the case for less than 10 per cent in the population at large. Very few inmates have education beyond upper secondary school. As a consequence this group have few formal skills to offer the labour market in a society where education levels in the population at large are increasing.

*** Widespread mental health problems

Inmates in Norwegian prisons are more likely to suffer from mental health problems than the rest of the population. In the population at large 10 per cent are suffering from such health problems, but among inmates the figure is three times as high. Three out of ten say that they needed treatment for mental health problems before imprisonment. This indicates that the problems they have today are not entirely attributable to the fact that they are in prison, but are also an effect of difficult living conditions before imprisonment. Still, we find that inmates who are kept in isolation are more likely to have mental health problems.

The survey was conducted by Statistics Norway for the Fafo Institute for Applied Social Science and financed by the Directorate for Health and Social Affairs and the Ministry of Justice. Comparisons with the population at large are mainly based on Statistics Norway's Survey of Living Conditions 2002.

Hmmmm, seems like our problems are not unique to us?

ray at 3:18AM on Nov 25th 2007

10. http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/08/018243.php

August 19, 2007
Norwegian Justice

We've often noted the befuddlement of European institutions in the face of Muslim immigration. That continent's ill-preparedness for the perils of modern life doesn't end with immigration, however. Don Surber notes a remarkable feature of criminal justice in Norway: prisons are optional. That is to say, the courts sentence criminals to prison, but whether they actually turn themselves in is up to the criminal:

“It’s difficult to make plans for the prison terms when we have no idea who will show up and who won’t,” said Ellinor Houm, director of the Norwegian Correctional Services, section for eastern Norway.
With fewer criminals showing up here than in any other part of Norway, Houm’s in charge of prisons with many empty beds. So far this year, every fourth criminal has not bothered to turn up at the prison gates in eastern Norway.


Predictably, difficulty in planning prison occupancy is the least of the Norway's problems: Surber cites Interpol data to show that Norway's crime rate, and the crime rate across northern Europe generally, is now double that in the United States.

I'm pretty sure that when my ancestors lived there, Norway's attitude toward criminals was a bit more practical. But much of Europe has succumbed to a liberal ideology that renders it more or less defenseless against civilization's enemies.

Hmmmmmmmm. Is it true that the crime rate in Norway and northern Europe is now TWICE the USA rate?

ray at 3:25AM on Nov 25th 2007

11. there are over 2 million imprisoned in the US,
thats more than the rest of the world combined.
80% are there for drugs charges,65% of that are for weed.
break it down,
it's a sad state of affairs where in a country that is supposedly "free"there is a small city imprisoned.
CONFORM,CONSUME,OBEY.
if you are unable,or uwilling to do any of these things,
chances are you will see the inside of a prison.
the "war on drugs" is a collosal failure,yet contributes to 80% of the prison population.
these are mostly the poor and uneducated.
but if you have the cash,you can do pretty much whatever you want in regards to dugs.
because you can "purchase" your freedom.
the justice system is no longer about justice,
its big business.
there are whole communities who rely on federal prisons to survive.
americans no longer produces anything,
we just consume..and consume,and consume.
and if you are unable to play the "consume game",
your a liability.
the only thing you have to offer is to OBEY and CONFORM.
be a good little doobie,and do what your told.
that sound like "freedom" to you?

but the "sheep" keep buying that line.
america is #1!
oh really?
number one in what?
what is america number one at?
debt?ok..your right.
population of prisoner's? yep,correct.
production and sales of WMD'S?thats correct too.
consumption of raw materials?got me..correct.
bombings,war and other strong arm tactic's globally?correctamundo!
but how about socially number one?
education?not a shot.
health?please..like 33rd.
longevity?you wish.
less poverty?dont make me laugh.
less disease?they would you to think that.
strength of family?dont make me laugh.
richest?only if your the top one percentile,which your not.
strongest dollar?um,australia just passed us.can you say "peso"?

so the idea that america is number one, is a misnomer propagated by the media and politicians but has nothing to do with reality.
thirty years ago america WAS number one,
but that time has passed,and they have been slowly chipping away at that greatness for thirty years.
but its obvious that some of you still buy into the story they are feeding you,even when the facts speak otherwise.
so you go ahead and keep listening to those lies while they steal you future,and your kids and your grandkids.
you stay in the permanent state of dreamy,sleepiness.
but dont be surprised when you wake up one day and dont recognize your country anymore.
others have been trying to wake you up for a very long time.
some are just so unwilling to let go of that comfortable dream.
it is a safety for them.
but its not a reality.
so go ahead and call me names,
but the facts speak for themselves.
you are asleep,and follow with a blind obedience much like sheep.
im hoping that if you get mad enough at me,
you will go research the facts to prove me wrong.
and hey..if im wrong,
i will gladly admit it.
for too many years i hoped i was wrong.
but facts are facts,
and i had to face them.
CONFORM,CONSUME,OBEY
thats not my mantra,
is it yours?
till next time..peace.
Enoch D.D.S

enoch at 3:04PM on Nov 25th 2007

12. ray..Thanks to certain "liberal" philosophies, the notion of shame escapes many offenders. Again, their "honor" or "standing up to the man" is more important than respecting others."

A conservative who thinks that American went to war with Nazi Germany for "perverse" reasons, can hardly claim that "lack of shame" is a liberal affliction.

Captain Negative at 5:48PM on Nov 25th 2007

13. Well done, enoch. Well done.

Captain Negative at 8:39PM on Nov 25th 2007

14. News Flash: AOL Poll shows that greatest place to live in the greatest country on Earth is Viking Country. With the highest standard of living, lowest crime rate, and overall best place to raise a family. Yes , that's right Minnesota is our winner! And honorable mention to Norway.

Timo at 9:21PM on Nov 25th 2007

15. #11. Now enoch..You know better than to place a post on a blog that I'm on, and the fact that I'm going to call you to the carpet on your highly implausible "statistics." With your recent propensity for erroneous hyperbole, I'm going to have to ask you for citations on your claims of 80% of the prison population being there for "drug related charges." Sheesh, keeping you honest is a full time job. Being an "ordained minister," aren't you afraid of a few lightning bolts?

lizard at 10:08PM on Nov 25th 2007