46.
As usual, lots of neo-con ignorance.

“When I crushed the skulls of the dead in Afghanistan I could happily justify it because I picked up pieces of human meat off the streets of Manhattan -each representing an innocent American life taken from their loved ones.”

So it’s OK to kill thousands of innocent civilians in Afghanistan (and NEVER getting Osama) because terrorists from Saudi Arabia attacked us?

“Why is it so hard for you folks to rationalize the fact that we're involved in a fight to secure OUR way of life -gas guzzling vehicles and mad capitalists side by side with dirt poor Appalachian miners and middle-class I-don't-give-a-shit yuppies living in $900,000.00 homes.”

That has to be one of the most disgusting posts I’ve ever read. You think being an American is about driving a gas-guzzler and not caring about the poor? There is nothing in the constitution or the Declaration of Independence about being driven by greed. What we're all about is summed up in the preamble to the constitution. "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, and insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our prosperity..."

“My Constitution tells me I have the RIGHT to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It DOESN'T tell me I have to protect the rights of those in foreign countries who stand in my way to ensure these benefits.”

Good heavens. You are truly ignorant, aren’t you? It’s not our constitution that doesn’t allow torture, it’s the four treaties of the Geneva Conventions. The third treaty is germane in this case, because it concerns the treatment of prisoners of war. These treaties were ratified by the US, and when we ratify a treaty, it becomes law of the land. As a signatory state, the US is required to enact sufficient national laws that make grave violations of the Geneva Conventions a punishable criminal offense.

This is the LAW. We AGREED that we would not engage in torture. Is our word worth nothing?

By the way, after WWII, we prosecuted Japanese who engaged in waterboarding of American soldiers, the punishment being 15 years at hard labor. For us to use the same torture is hypocritical, unlawful, and immoral.

Tatiana at 12:10AM on Nov 27th 2007

47. Alan - You're comments very aptly surmise the exact reason we haven't had a repeat of 9/11. I am perfectly willing to raise the bar by committing the most hideous acts necessary to protect my country. There really is no need for dialouge -with you or the enemy. They kill 10, I kill 1000. If I need to kill, torture or maim husbands, wives and kids to make the point that our nation absolutely WILL NOT STOP until we've decimated the enemy's will to fight, then so be it. It's quite ugly, don't you think? And here's the corker: IT WORKS. Let me tell you a little story about Masari-Shariff in Afghanistan in the weeks following 9/11. We and our Northern Alliance allies rounded up approximately three hundred Taliban and Al-Qaeda fighters. We put them in large steel shipping containers with no food, no water, no air vents in 100 degree heat and we locked the doors. Within a few hours it was probably closer to 140 degrees in those containers. We opened the doors and took out two high-value prisoners. They weren't much in the mood for fighting at that point. We closed the doors back up on their "buddies" (and yes, some of them were young men in the early teens) and began to question these tangos in an effort to find out what they knew about locating some additional Al-Qaeda HVTs. They weren't much in the mood to answer our questions and to be honest, our Northern Alliance friends felt they needed a little motivation. One of the tangos told us something we already knew - our prisoners were dying of asphyxia in those containers. He stated he would provide us information if would open some air holes to let the other prisoners breath. And we did -with .50 caliber machines. After opening up about 500 "air holes" in each CONEX, we noticed a lot of blood. The look on our tangos faces was worth a million dollars. And the information flowed like water. We also found out where the tangos kept their families and we paid them a visit too. We aerated there homes with 500lb bombs and just to make sure we left our calling card so EVERYONE knew we weren't fucking around, the Air Force dropped a thermobaric device over the whole village. (Just in case you don't know, thermobarics are fuel-air explosives. They carry the same destructive capacity as a low yield nuclear device. But even better, they feed off the local oxygen in the air creating a negative overpressure that literally pulls your lungs out of your mouth.) Message sent. Message received. All the villages located within 50 kilometers of the detonation all decided the next morning to hand over THEIR Taliban sympathizers and local Al-Qaeda fighters. We didn't have to fire another shot.

YOU WANT SYMPATHY? Go snivel to the United Nations. YOU WANT A NATION FREE FROM OTHER 9/11 TYPE HORRORS? Stop bitching about what YOU think is right and leave it to the professional warriors to execute a battle plan WE know will convince these worthless subhuman animals that fighting us is futile.

Despite what you might think, I don't live in fear and I have sufficient knowledge to know that our enemy DOES, in fact, live in fear. We've turned the tables on them and I sleep like a baby every night glad to know I incinerated as many of these animals as I was capable of given the time, space and weapon systems available to me at moment.

Here's a concept for you. If you don't like the fact that warfare is a ghastly, horrific job - just turn and look the other way. You can feel safe, secure and happy knowing that SOMEONE ELSE will do the dirty work necessary to keep the OIL flowing and to keep our nation fat, dumb and happy. Again, LIFE, LIBERTY & THE PURSUIT OF HAPINESS is guaranteed by our Constitution. But it doesn't mean we need to be nice to our neighbors.

Let the killing and torture continue until we've made our point. It's worked wonders in parts of Iraq where the locals got tired of it and finally agreed to get off their lazy asses and put a shoulder to the wheel.

You don't win wars pussy-footing with the enemy and enemy sympathizers. You win by demonstrating an unending propensity to continue killing until a) nothing remains or b) fear prompts unconditional surrender. Sorry this is so difficult for those of you who've never raised a weapon in defense of this nation to hear. But it's the plain, simple truth.

By the way, Stephen King is right on one thing, Brittany Spears is definitely trailer trash. Maybe all you peaceniks can refocus your energies domestically and do what you're best at -interfering with everyone's life to make sure they're living it in the politically correct manner you proscribe. I bet you'd straighten poor Brittany out in a hurry.

Liam at 12:14AM on Nov 27th 2007

48. Liam - thank you! Now I know why the Taliban has made such progress in re-taking Afganistan!

Robert E. Quillen at 12:38AM on Nov 27th 2007

49. By the way Tatiana, a very good arguement. However, you raise the "morality" issue as a defense. Not sure if you've ever seen combat, but there's nothing moral about it at all. The Geneva Coventions were proscribed (and yes, germaine at the time of their ratification) with respect to St. Thomas Aquinas' Just War Theory (the idea that certain wars could in fact, be justified and morally acceptable). But more to the point, they were ratified in response to the common public's outcry at conditions they saw for the first time in mass media illustrating how gruesome combat could be (in WWI). Times have changed. The definition of an organized military which applied to card carrying members of militaries of those nations having ratified the convention documents provided those protections ONLY to organized militaries. Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Shia' and Sunni militias are NOT protected by the conventions because they do not meet the requirements stipulated within the document as applying those protections to members of organized militaries of nation states. I'd be happy to debate you concerning the laws of land warfare, but I believe you'll find no restrictions on the level of brutality needed to secure victory.

Hence, the "enemy combatant" term applies to these things and we are under no legal OR moral obligation to observe treaty practice. Furthermore, I believe many of the conventions apply only in the sense that are relevant to the United States when we "declare war." Not since WWII have we "declared war" on any nation.

I also find it quite silly that you believe we are NOT a nation founded in greed. Our very system of government is based on the supposition that capitalism will drive our economy and in short, "form a more perfect union, establish justice, and insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our prosperity..." I still can't find any reference in the document indicating we need to be nice to our neighbors after they attack us; nor can I find any reference which limits our ability to wage wars in order to ensure domestic tranquility, the general welfare, or the blessings of liberty. We wage war to sustain these rights. If you find THAT disgusting, well, I can't help you.

But you are correct that we prosecuted Japanese officers after WWII for torture. Again, this was a "declared war" and met the definitions prescribed by the Geneva Conventions. In the absence of that declaration, the LAW (as you so aptly put it) becomes muddied with respect to application of the Geneva principles.

We are under no obligation that our word is our bond. When the primary objective of this war against us as a nation stems from the idea of globalizing radical Islam, quite frankly, we're in a holy crusade and as I've said before, it's US or THEM. I'd prefer to keep driving my SUV and living in my $900,000.00 house here on the shore in New England. And if I must pick up arms again, then I'll happily do so and I'll do whatever it takes to keep my daughter from wearing a burka or abbiyah against her will or to keep my son from being strapped into a suicide vest. Check it out. This is the United States of America and if you ain't lovin' it pack up an leave. There are plenty of places in this world you can go where they'd fully tolerate your desire to speak your mind! (Oh, wait!? There's not IS THERE?)

Liam at 12:48AM on Nov 27th 2007

50. Liam - thank you! Now I know why the Taliban has made such progress in re-taking Afganistan!
.>>

Is that what the New York times is telling you? Retaking Afghanistan?

Clue: Yes the body counts are mounting in Afghanistan, but what you're not being told is most of those bodies are Taliban, Al Qeada, and assorted lunatic Jihadis.

There is nothing so horrible as the murder of a beautiful theory ... by a brutal gang of facts.

Ceasar.

Thomas J Gassett at 2:24AM on Nov 27th 2007

51. By the way, after WWII, we prosecuted Japanese who engaged in waterboarding of American soldiers, the punishment being 15 years at hard labor. For us to use the same torture is hypocritical, unlawful, and immoral.
>>>

The Japs we prosecuted were raping and murdering Chinese civilains, and cutting the heads of prisioners ... US and Britsh prisioners. They didn't bother with waterboarding or rude language.

Clue: If waterboarding is torture ... then why do we use it on our own troops in training ... and nobody sues or is sent to prision for 15 years? Riddle me this ... or just stop the mindless liberal lying.

Thomas J Gassett at 2:30AM on Nov 27th 2007

52. I'm a liberal and proud to say so.>>>

You're not a liberal! The last American liberal was Scoop Jackson and I doubt you've ever even heard of him.
Before JFK was assassinated over 60% of Americans identified themselves as liberals ... today that number is nearer 16%.
When the LEFT went limp on defense and somewhere to the LEFT of Mao, millions of Americans (liberals) just like me became republicans, independants, greens, and even NEO CONS. (a divergent branch of the anti Vietnam war LEFT, not the right.
You're not a liberal! You are the mirror image of the useless Euro Left in France, and without one redeeming American characteristic

Thomas J Gassett at 3:06AM on Nov 27th 2007

53. Personally, I would rather die than violate my personal morals on the use of torture. Do you have any principles that are worth your life?
>>>>>

The problem is you want us all to die with you.

Thomas J Gassett at 3:13AM on Nov 27th 2007

54. Like General George Patton said: It's not your duty to die for your country. It's your duty to make the other dumb bastard die for his country.

He went on to mention greasing the tracks of his tank with a German's living guts.

The only question we need to ask ourselves is are we still a people willing to burn our enemies cities to the ground and kill as many as it takes to win ... or are we going to play the victim this time?

Thomas J Gassett at 3:17AM on Nov 27th 2007

55. Liam, you're one sick puppy. You've become them. Seriously, get help.

edartone at 3:45AM on Nov 27th 2007

56. "The Japs we prosecuted were raping and murdering Chinese civilains, and cutting the heads of prisioners ... US and Britsh prisioners. They didn't bother with waterboarding or rude language."

WRONG! We prosecuted for WATERBOARDING. Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP. Look up Yukio Asano, who served 15 years at hard labor for it. The German Gestapo used it as well.

This is what bugs me about the rightwingers. You don't care about facts or laws.

Tatiana at 4:11AM on Nov 27th 2007

57. LMAO. Americans are the biggest bunch of morons.

Woo hoo, I'm a proud Amurrikkkun because I was down thurr on 9/11, so thun I joined da military and killed as many ppl as I could!! I'm a garsh durn national hero!!

You're no more a national hero than the NYPD and FDNY who, at their "concert" were screaming drunk and obnoxious.

You see, in a time of great adversity and national tragedy, instead of banding together and helping each other, Americans take to slamming each other on the back and then arguing over who's the bigger hero, ultimately losing sight of why they were "heroes" in the first place. It's 2007, and Americans are still throwing around 9/11/01 like it happened yesterday, and terrorists are lurking in every nook and cranny. If you crawled out from under your beds and turned off Fox News, you'd see that OTHER countries actually do have it a little worse than us when it comes to the terrorism thing - they have to deal with terrorist attacks on a DAILY basis. Americans are the first to step up and drink the Kool-Aid that the gubmint hands out whenever the words "terrorist" or "Islamofascist" are mentioned, meanwhile probably half of these idiots have no health insurance and are barely scraping by.

The American Dream, people. It's what 18 year olds are dying for, supposedly. The chance for an Average Joe to buy a $700,000 pressed board McMansion, an SUV, a plasma screen TV and have overscheduled, selfish, joyless, ADHD children in a crumbling public school system. Average Joe can work 70 hours a week with 2 weeks vacation per year as a corporate tool until he's 75 if he actually makes it that long.

I can definitely see terrorists being envious of our way of life. Such freedom! I mean, I can totally understand why they would avoid the European countries - with their government subsidized day care, health insurance, college education, 6-8 weeks vacation per year. What a crappy life. No way but the American way, indeed.

Chris at 4:31AM on Nov 27th 2007

58.


"Times have changed. The definition of an organized military which applied to card carrying members of militaries of those nations having ratified the convention documents provided those protections ONLY to organized militaries. Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Shia' and Sunni militias are NOT protected by the conventions because they do not meet the requirements stipulated within the document as applying those protections to members of organized militaries of nation states."

WRONG. This is from the actual treaty:

Art 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Art 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

***Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.***

BTW, Iraq is a signatory country.

Not ONE WORD about it needing to be a declared war. Anyway, the reason it's an undeclared war is that Bush has thrown out the constitution and ignored the War Powers Act. The president is only allowed to have troops in combat for 60 days without a declaration of war, but the war continues.


"I still can't find any reference in the document indicating we need to be nice to our neighbors after they attack us; nor can I find any reference which limits our ability to wage wars in order to ensure domestic tranquility, the general welfare, or the blessings of liberty. We wage war to sustain these rights."

Nobody said we had to "be nice to our neighbors after they attack us." IRAQ DID NOT ATTACK US. The invasion and occupation of Iraq has nothing to do with our domestic tranquility, general welfare or blessings of liberty.


"We are under no obligation that our word is our bond."

OF COURSE we are under obligation to a treaty that was signed and ratified by the US. When we ratify a treaty it becomes THE LAW OF THE LAND. It's part of our laws, and we are required to punish those who take part in it.


"And if I must pick up arms again, then I'll happily do so and I'll do whatever it takes to keep my daughter from wearing a burka or abbiyah against her will or to keep my son from being strapped into a suicide vest."

Do you honestly beleive that they're going to come over here and force women to wear the beekeeper suits? Really? How are they going to get here? Delta? You really need to get in touch with reality.


"This is the United States of America and if you ain't lovin' it pack up an leave. There are plenty of places in this world you can go where they'd fully tolerate your desire to speak your mind! (Oh, wait!? There's not IS THERE?)"

I love my country because we're supposed to be the GOOD GUYS, a nation of LAWS. You seem to have no respect for this, so I can only surmise that you do NOT respect this country. If you can't respect the fact that we are a nation of laws, perhaps you'd be happier in a more barbaric place.

Tatiana at 4:36AM on Nov 27th 2007

59. EXCELLENT post, Chris!!

Tatiana at 4:38AM on Nov 27th 2007

60. WRONG! We prosecuted for WATERBOARDING. Don't believe me? LOOK IT UP. Look up Yukio Asano, who served 15 years at hard labor for it. The German Gestapo used it as well.

This is what bugs me about the rightwingers. You don't care about facts or laws.
>>>>

I stand corrected, and btw I do care about facts. Did you read the entire article? It proves that we've been waterboarding prisioners since Korea, which proves the lie that Bush suddenly decide to torture members of Al Qeada, now doesn't it?


>>>A CIA interrogation training manual declassified 12 years ago, "KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation -- July 1963," outlined a procedure similar to waterboarding. Subjects were suspended in tanks of water wearing blackout masks that allowed for breathing. Within hours, the subjects felt tension and so-called environmental anxiety. "Providing relief for growing discomfort, the questioner assumes a benevolent role," the manual states.

The KUBARK manual was the product of more than a decade of research and testing, refining lessons learned from the Korean War, where U.S. airmen were subjected to a new type of "touchless torture" until they confessed to a bogus plan to use biological weapons against the North Koreans.

Used to train new interrogators, the handbook presented "basic information about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation situation." When it comes to torture, however, the handbook advised that "the threat to inflict pain . . . can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain."

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

After the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, the interrogation world changed. Low-level Taliban and Arab fighters captured in Afghanistan provided little information, the former intelligence official said. When higher-level al-Qaeda operatives were captured, CIA interrogators sought authority to use more coercive methods.

These were cleared not only at the White House but also by the Justice Department and briefed to senior congressional officials, according to a statement released last month by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. Waterboarding was one of the approved techniques.

When questions began to be raised last year about the handling of high-level detainees and Congress passed legislation barring torture, the handful of CIA interrogators and senior officials who authorized their actions became concerned that they might lose government support.

Passage last month of military commissions legislation provided retroactive legal protection to those who carried out waterboarding and other coercive interrogation techniques.

Thomas J Gassett at 5:57AM on Nov 27th 2007