151. are you saying that social conservatives are in favor of promoting prejudice? the organizations listed on the apa discussion do not say "straight people are tearing at the moral fiber of humanity" or "straight people should not have the rights that gay people have." we can see how nicely that sort of thinking worked by looking at racial segregation. i would think that after that we would have learned our lesson about how dangerous and disgusting prejudice is.

Richelle at 12:16AM on Dec 3rd 2007

152. Where's the research, the studies, the valid references???

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

As the iconoclast, it's YOUR burden to disprove the APA if you think you can topple them, not the other way around. What do you have to refute them?

Clif Kuplen at 12:18AM on Dec 3rd 2007

153. Richelle:

I'm saying that social conversatives would generally disagree with the Gay and Lesbian Task Force, just like you (as more liberal on the gay rights issue) disagree with the Christian Coalition and the Family Research Council. So if you would not even consider research done by an organization affiliated with the Christian Coalition or the Family Research Council, why should a social conservative consider the findings of an organization affiliated with the Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

I'm just applying the same standard to the APA that you are using to evaluate research done by organizations affiliated with the Family Research Council or the Christian Coalition.

Fair enough??

kulari94 at 12:28AM on Dec 3rd 2007

154. clif,

i doubt kulari has anything. he/she (sorry kulari, i don't know your sex) has taken to arguing the most minor points of my arguments, as well as george's. watch, we'll get some "evidence" provided by the christian coalition or frc, that would be laughable.

Richelle at 12:32AM on Dec 3rd 2007

155. Clif:

You missed the earlier part of the blog, where Richelle was claiming that George had provided valid references to support his claim that homosexuality was normal, when all that George provided were conclusory statements from the APA. The statements did not provide any research, studies, etc. That's what prompted my comment about research, studies, etc.

Since then, Richelle has directed me to a website which references several studies and research. Though I am still reviewing, the website states that one of the factors that resulted in the 1973 decision declassifying homosexuality as a disorder was changing cultural mores. It was my understanding that the APA had changed its decision in response to pressure from homosexual activists.

I think there are psychiatric organizations that have done their own research and classify homosexuality as a disorder. I'm looking into that.

kulari94 at 12:38AM on Dec 3rd 2007

156. i do not see those as being equal, but that's just me. besides i would say that it is fair to assume that most social conservatives would like to believe that homosexuality is some sort of disorder because they want to establish as many differences between themselves and homosexuals as possible. they don't want to believe that homosexuals are people just like them and resort to saying that they are immoral, as if morality can be based on one's adherance to christianity. besides, it's not the civil rights activists who are conducting research on sexual orientation, it's psychologists (apa = american psychological association)

Richelle at 12:40AM on Dec 3rd 2007

157. I went to the website you referred me to, where it states that the changes were made because of new evidence and changing cultural mores, which is exactly what I suspected.

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oh, i'm sorry, what was that you said there.... about NEW EVIDENCE?

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Though I am still reviewing, the website states that one of the factors that resulted in the 1973 decision declassifying homosexuality as a disorder was changing cultural mores

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hhmmmmm, you've left it out that time though.... i wonder why? you assume that clif missed the previous posts. he very well could have read all the posts from the beginning.

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You missed the earlier part of the blog, where Richelle was claiming that George had provided valid references to support his claim that homosexuality was normal, when all that George provided were conclusory statements from the APA.

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george never said that homosexuality was "normal." it stated that sexual orientation is not a choice.

Richelle at 12:48AM on Dec 3rd 2007

158. Richelle:

That's correct - the APA claims evidence as one of the reasons why it changed its position. But I think it is very revealing that changing cultural mores was the other reason for the APA reversal.

The reason I did not mention the other factor in my response to Clif is because it was not relevant to the point I was making, which is that policial pressure was a factor in the APA decision to declassify homosexuality as a disorder. I was not suggesting that the APA is claiming that a change in cultural mores was the sole factor for the reversal.

Further, I believe one of George's claim was that homosexuality is not a disorder (and therefore normal behavior), given the lengthy cut and paste from the APA website on why there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

kulari94 at 1:27AM on Dec 3rd 2007

159. here's something for you to consider: had there not been social and political pressure for desegregationin the 60s would we still have "white" schools and "black" schools? just because the civil rights movement resulted in changing national policies didn't mean that claims that blacks are inferior to whites were not incorrect.

and for you to read all that information and fret over that one little detail is baffling to me.

also, i feel more comfortable saying that homosexuality is not a disorder as opposed to saying it is "normal" because many people tend to use the latter ambiguously.

Richelle at 1:40AM on Dec 3rd 2007

160. Neocons hate gays for the votes.


There are pseudo psychiatric groups that would classify homosexuality as abnormal like theosophy, but where you ought to look for an authoritative answer is the Diagnostic and Statistical manual of the American Psychiatric Association (DSMIVb or whatever's current).

there is another multiaxial diagnostic manual from the Mellon Group but it's been decades since I was familiar with it.

If you don't find homosexuality classified as a disorder in the DSM's, I think that ought to settle it for you.

Who is so damned homophobic and why? And what kind of hatred prompts you to reject anything mainstream so you can persecute gays?

Anyone with any biological training would tell you homophobes that homosexuality is extremely normal in other animals and has been identified in around 1500 species from racoons to dolphins to moo cows.

By the way, if any of you think homosexuality is a choice and think you chose heterosexuality, I'd say that's prima facie evidence that you're bisexual.

But don't worry, it's normal!

Clif Kuplen at 1:41AM on Dec 3rd 2007

161. thank you clif for the excellent point on psuedo psychiatric groups! and kulari, we've already discussed the dsm IV not listing homosexuality as a disorder. and i believe the link i provided for you cited sufficient research and references to satisfy your concerns there.

Richelle at 1:53AM on Dec 3rd 2007

162. You guys reminded me of a book I have read several times. "Our Kind" by Marvin Harris, a very well respected cultural anthropologist.

In the chapter on homosexuality, he writes:

"I doubt that there are any obligatory modes of human sexuality at all outside of those imposed by cultural prescription. Why should there be? humans have sex to spare." (...here he goes into all the ways that make humans able to have sex anytime, anywhere - not just in a breeding season and such like that.....) "In truth, it takes a great deal of training and conditioning, parental disapproval, social ridicule, threats of fiery hell, repressive legislation and, now, the threat of AIDS to convert our kind's bountiful sexual endowment into an aversion against even the mere thought of homosexual congress."


He also writes, refering to how homosexuality came to be viewed as undesirable:

"...society needs children, even if sexually active adults do not. In reaction to the prospect of widespread reproductive failure brought on by the shift from agrarian to industrial economies, employers of labor pushed legislation that condemned and severely punished every form of nonreproductive sex. The objective of this movement was to make sex a privilege granted by society only to people who would use the privilege to make babies. As a glaring example of nonreproductive sex, homosexuality became a major target of the pronatalist forces, along with masturbation, premarital sex, contraception and abortion."

FL Chick at 2:15AM on Dec 3rd 2007

163. Fl chick, that was a provocative read. Not the first one I've read from you - good stuff!

I don't know if i agree with it but I'll be thinking about it a bit. Not that it doesn't all make sense, but some of this happened in my lifetime and I want to considere timelines and like that more carefully.

Here's another tossout - I think there may be something to this, too.

Hellenic influences and Roman influences on hebrew, apiru, judean, chaldean cultures was double edged.

Obviously hellenic thinking was incorporated into 'jewish' philosophy, but these peoples, the greeks and romans were also opressors. I read of at least one instance where a jewish temple was converted into a gay bathhouse by hellenic occupiers. Not the best way to put gay pride over on an uninitiated culture, unfortunately.

Do you think that this aversion to roman and greek 'social' homosexuality passed down through religion could still be coloring our outlook today?

I do, just for conversation starters, but I'm just one brain.

And here's a conundrum for me.

I don't believe that homosexuality is in any way a 'choice' unless a person is born bisexual, but there was a time that homosexuality was part of customs and folkways for everyone.

Anyone care to speculate why this was? I know it's off topic, but I'm curious - not bi, just curious!

Clif Kuplen at 3:25AM on Dec 3rd 2007

164. DINESH D'SOUZA IS A HATEFUL MAN.

THERE IS NO GOD !

Daniel Mullane at 3:42AM on Dec 3rd 2007

165. To me there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

The reason I started posting is that I'm tired of people referring to me, a gay man as a pedophile. I believe in your right to an opinion, I do. If we all agreed it would be boring around here. To me I do not have a mental disorder; I knew I was gay in 6th grade. I played football had girlfriends did the whole straight thing, I was lying to myself. The APA used the link as a reference for further information. I’m sure that there are other groups that feel like you do. But the APA is the group that monitors the DSM-4 codes.

Your right, if the FRC was with them and the decision went the other way it would be biased, to me anyway. The APA is Suppose be independent but who knows.

Thanks
George

george at 11:55AM on Dec 3rd 2007