Philosopher Daniel Dennett wants to force all parents, even parents who home-school their offspring, to give up their children to educators like himself. For what purpose? To expose the children, Dennett argues, to "uncontroversial" facts about the world's religions. Listen to Dennett make his case in a short segment from our recent debate in Boston, and then you can hear my answer to him.
In his book on religion, Dennett writes, "How much do we regard children as being the property of their parents? It's one thing to say people should be free to believe whatever they like, but should they be free to impose their beliefs on their children? Is there something to be said for society stepping in?" Dennett insists that "parents don't literally own their children the way slaveowners once owned slaves, but are, rather, their stewards and guardians, and ought to be held accountable by outsiders for their guardianship, which does imply that outsiders have a right to interfere."
During our debate, Dennett asked me what part of his proposal I disagreed with. Well, I agree with him that one of the purposes of education is to expose young people to facts and ideas that they do not get at home. But I disagree with Dennett's presumption that parents are typically the indoctrinators while educators are always the liberators. Notice how derisively and condescendingly he talks about religion. His derision is entirely unsubstantiated by facts. He mocks the Vatican and wonders if it will one day become a museum, and he wonders if Mecca is headed for repossession as "Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah." Sure enough, a good part of the audience is moved to snickers and laughter. This is bigotry posing as intellectual sophistication. Dennett has taught the undergraduates well: chuckle at anyone who takes religion seriously and this is how you will be considered an enlightened, mature person.
We should turn Dennett's questions on him and apply them to professors: "How much do we regard children as being the property of their teachers? Should secular educators be free to impose their anti-religious beliefs on young people? Is there something to be said for society stepping in? Universities don't literally own undergraduates the way slaveowners once owned slaves but are, rather, their stewards and guardians and ought to be held accountable by outsiders for their guardianship, which does imply that outsiders have a right to interfere."
For legislators, alumni and parents, probably the best way to hold universities accountable is through financial leverage. The way I do it is to take on self-satisfied pedants like Dennett and expose them, in front of their own students, as intellectual emperors without clothes. Watch the Dennett debate and you will see how the snickers and applause of the skeptics eventually gives way to a sullen silence. These students are desperately in need of an alternative to the strident secularism of Dennett and his colleagues. True liberation for young people means freedom not only from the ignorant fundamentalism that Dennett rails about, but also freedom from the secular fundamentalism that he and many others in the academy sadly embody.
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Teaching as a Form of Indoctrination
Posted Dec 13th 2007 7:23AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Islam, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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Reader Comments ( Page 6 of 35)
76. Taking children out of homes and educating them as the soviets did, does not appeal to me. As we raise our children, we indoctrinate them to all of what we believe. If you watch your sons and daughters, you'll evn see them imitate how you walk and talk. I would bet as adults, you have said things to your children that sounded just like your parents, and you even said to yourself, why did I say this- I hated it when they said the same thing.
My biggest worry is when radicals from any group hijack our educational institutions ( this includes us atheists as well ). Over the past 40 years we have had different experiments in public education, have they worked, are our children better educated?
I don't want my daughter to be taught to be a 2nd class citizen in the U.S. I do not like the idea of my son being dumbed down so that he can't know the differences between Haitians and Iraqi's.
The young lady that was killed because of the head scarf was caused by a belief that women are 2nd class.
Intolerence will kill the American experiment.
JefFlyingV at 2:14PM on Dec 13th 2007
77. An excerpt from the above webpage about the altercation on the train due to HOLIDAY GREETINGS!
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Friday's altercation on the Q train began when somebody yelled out "Merry Christmas," to which rider Walter Adler responded, "Happy Hanukkah," said Toba Hellerstein.
"Almost immediately, you see the look in this guy's face like I've called his mother something," Adler told CNN affiliate WABC.
Two women who were with a group of 10 rowdy people then began to verbally assault Adler's companions with anti-Semitic language, Hellerstein said.
One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," she said.
When Adler tried to intercede, a male member of the group punched him, she said.
Another passenger, Hassan Askari -- a Muslim student from Bangladesh -- came to Adler's aid, and the group began physically and verbally assaulting him, Hellerstein said.
"A Muslim-American saved us when our own people were on the train and didn't do anything," Adler said.
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/holiday-greetings-spark-subway-brawl/20071213072209990001
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Christians are fast becoming our pet nazis. They're the hate mongers, the bigots, the violent ones now... So sad. Jesus would have wept a lot more if he could have forseen it.
Brian at 2:15PM on Dec 13th 2007
78. Who can we blame for Goth?
Mokele-Mbembe at 2:17PM on Dec 13th 2007
79. Richard,
You need to get a grip, Not one has been proven.
Life from non-life. bang without matter, you have been conned.
Observant at 2:19PM on Dec 13th 2007
80. "Children should be taught HOW to think, not WHAT to think. FL Chick at 1:58PM on Dec 13th 2007
----------------------------------
simply brilliant, FLC.
Linda at 2:19PM on Dec 13th 2007
81. One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," she said.
----------------
This is how good little christian children are taught to behave, by their parents. Who are also haters, of course.
If we don't stop the parents, what's the answer to this problem? We can't have undereducated angry bigots on every streetcorner, train, bus, school, etc. Even though that is the christian wet dream.
I've got it! Make it an entry requirement to every university that the student pasas a simple test, including of course evolution, basic geology, archeology, paleontology, and a few other sciences. Just the basics that every high-schooler should know.
The fundie kids would flunk, so we wouldn't have to worry about them getting degrees and entering the workforce as anything more exalted than fruit pickers.
And then we won't need the mexicans! Immigration SOLVED, thank you very much.
Brian at 2:22PM on Dec 13th 2007
82. observant, you sound like a typical fundie.
Your delusion eclipses any intellect you may have.
It's a shame. A crying shame.
Richard at 2:27PM on Dec 13th 2007
83. Dinesh is ignorant and not willing to discuss the issue of brainwashing on impressionalbe young minds. Linda is totally correct. Dinesh, no matter what the argument is, tries to use his impressive intellect to obfuscate the real issues in almost all of his op/eds or debates. He is not not open to views that are contra to his.
marty at 2:59PM on Dec 13th 2007
84. I can't believe it. I actually agree with DD on this one. A parents responsibility is to present the child with a world view, an overarching meta-narrative by which that child makes sense out of the world. The job of a university professor is to teach the facts as they pertain to his or her discipline. I wouldn't expect a biology teacher to teach a trumped up fiction like creationism. By the same token I wouldn't expect the same teacher to leave the confines of his or her particular discipline and start making assertions about things they know nothing about.
randy at 2:35PM on Dec 13th 2007
85. I'll post this again. I really want answers to this. Please watch it.
----------------------------
I ran across another interesting video. It's called "Proving that the Bible is Repulsive."
Now I know, that sounds awful to a christian, but please hear me out here.
I really think that everyone here should watch this video, both christians and non-christians. Especially the christians though. It's also about ten minutes, like the Penn and Teller one. Very interesting. All quotes from actual scripture with commentary. I couldn't take my eyes off it.
All stuff that I didn't know about the bible, and I was a catholic that went to sunday school and paid attention, and remembers most of the bible stories that I was told. I'm wondering if any of you fundamentalists and die-hard christians (brian, dena, rita, etc...) out there knew about these verses. And while I know that you christians hate me, I'm asking you to PLEASE watch this one, and even the penn and teller one, but ESPECIALLY THIS ONE, and get back to me about what you think of it. I'm really serious here. Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y&feature=related
Please? I think it might prove interesting. And I ask so little of you... :-) Oh, and don't answer if you didn't watch all of it, since the best parts are at the end...
Thank you.
Brian
Brian at 2:36PM on Dec 13th 2007
86. I can think of one , well three actually.
Darwinism, bangism, atheism.
Observant at 2:10PM on Dec 13th 2007
xx
Right! that might make them grow up to be doctors or astrophysicists or engineers who don't speak in tongues, hate gays, have sex with altar boys or get all forked up on the lord and smooch with rattlesnakes.
Clif Kuplen at 2:36PM on Dec 13th 2007
87. OK. The incident in New York:
Most christians would condemn the behavior of the young 'Merry Christmas' people.
They were thugs. I do not think of that as christian behavior.
Jews and christians have worked for many years to dispel that 'jews killed christ' myth. Even the pope agrees.
Linda at 2:38PM on Dec 13th 2007
88. randy, 81, I agree normally, but this is not normal. What if the parents involved were teaching their children to kill anybody that they got angry at? If we knew about it, we would take the child or children away and put the parent in jail.
It's not really that different when the parent INDOCTRINATES the child in fundamentalism. Fundamentalism of any kind is evil. Just look at Matthew Murray. His parents couldn't be more responsible if they had given him the guns and told him to kill people.
I know it's distasteful, and it probably won't happen, but perhaps it should. Children are the future, and the christians WANT the future for themselves ALONE. And if, just IF, the fundamentalists ever actually get their way and attain absolute power in this country, as they're DESPERATE to do, well then they'll be building the ovens for the unbelievers the next month...
Brian at 2:45PM on Dec 13th 2007
89. Linda, I agree that Allan Bloom is a fascinating figure. I also cannot conceive of how intellectually thick a book as "Closing" became a national bestseller. Maybe Gen Xers were smarter than Bloom gave them credit for.
You (Linda) asked if I thought whether liberal professors were vilifying all religion, and whether I think that religion fosters critical thinking ("LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!" -- I take this as incredulous laughter). First, maybe you never heard professors critiquing religion because you agreed with their basic assumptions. It is common in argument not to state these assumptions, and the fact that Dinesh does so in debate highlights how much liberal professors try to cover them up. Pin down nine out of ten anthropology professors in any major university, and they will tell you that they don't believe in moral or otherwise absolutes. Truth, for them, does not exist. This goes along with your comment about morality being learned from parents or guardian figures. Plato would disagree with you. He asserted that ethics are discovered through rational inquiry and debate, not inheritance. We learn morality by examining it, or else we remain dependent on other peoples' opinions forever.
As to whether I think religion fosters critical thinking, take some of the great intellectuals of history as an example. Galileo, Aquinas, Copernicus, Mendel - these people and many, many others were both formidable thinkers and also devoutly religious believers. Coincidence? I don't think so. Science itself, as Dinesh points out, operates according to principles essentially metaphysical, such as the assumption that the universe is rational and that no amount of empirical evidence ever yields conclusive proof of anything. Science, in essence, proceeds on faith. Just like religion. These thinkers were arguably able to recognize this aspect of science because of their religious faith, and thus saw no conflict between science and religion. The leftist argument against religion, which argument you use, because religion inculcates "blind faith" into people doesn't hold water, because the same can be said of science. Religion compels a recognition of the faith required to function as humans who have limited understanding but who must nevertheless act on what little knowledge we do have.
bship at 2:48PM on Dec 13th 2007
90. 84. OK. The incident in New York:
Most christians would condemn the behavior of the young 'Merry Christmas' people.
They were thugs. I do not think of that as christian behavior.
-----------------------------
Yeah, that's why they actually indicted themselves as christian bigots when they yelled "Isn't that the day the jews killed Christ?"
You're dreaming, Linda. Sorry.
The fundies may SAY that they don't hate the jews, but they just can't help themselves, and it says RIGHT HERE IN THE BIBLE that the jews killed christ, so it's okay for them to hate them.
Brian at 2:49PM on Dec 13th 2007