46. Come on man, you just admitted that there is something higher than humans.
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Do you see anything higher than humans around here?

I do not belive that there is anything higher than humans, unless perhaps it's some extraterrestrial life form.

I said it's all consciousness. Like a dream, if you will. Not a normal dream, but similar. But in whose head? Who is dreaming it?

WE are, silly! Life in general. In fact, it's a dream without a spevific dreamer required, since to think one is required is missing the point. We ALL dream it together. Since we're one. We are the dreamer and the dream.

And since we're the most advanced life form around in this particular dream, we're the best of the dreamers, the most able to construct a complicated dream like this. No god required at all. We did it; when we looked at it, it became real. The closer we looked, the finer the detail that we created. The farther away in space that our telescopes can see, the more of the dream becomes real. We find new stars, but were they there before we had the telescope to look? Hard to say...

That's how reality works. Or so I've come to think. If I'm wrong, it's the atheists that are right, and not you theists with your children's stories.

But it's easy to see why some people think that God is real, since if they believe it hard enough, reality will give them false evidence of it being true due to their preoccupation with it warping their vision of reality.

Brian at 6:20PM on Dec 21st 2007

47. Interesting Dinesh should mention Monty Python and Christianity in the same post.

Every time someone asks me about my take on Jesus, my brain can't help replaying "He's NOT the Messiah, he's a VERY NAUGHTY BOY!" It's a rather irreverent version of how I'd respond, but it works in a pinch.

So, Dinesh, why is it such a valid topic to rag on how aetheists celebrate Christmas? Since you view atheists' participation as a sign of respect for Christianity's contributions to society, are you showing your respect for other religions (who have no doubt also made valuable contributions) by celebrating the holidays of other religions? Or are they so inferior and lacking in value by comparison that they don't merit any recognition on your part?

Oh, and so you know, we've been to a friend's house for Hannukah, we're attending a Solstice celebration over the weekend (potluck food and shared entertainment to light the darkest night, don't ya know), and we'll have a small gift exchange and special meal on Christmas.

Basically, we try to be respectful of whatever beliefs help our friends and loved ones be their best selves. Maybe you should try that some time.

Alice at 6:21PM on Dec 21st 2007

48. Dear Baby Jesus, I would like a brand new AK-47 for your birthday so I can kill every obviously stoopid martha focker who doesn't believe you are real. I would also like my bush to stop burning from all the gay, drug induced sex I've been having. Then I want you to smite all gays because your "Dad" "created" homos so we could have someone to hate and hate is the message of every season. oops I forgot, they weren't created gay, they chose that life because gay sex is sooo much better then straight sex and they do it just to get back at him for not accepting them. And could you please send us a small miracle to prove you exist, like maybe a burning bush, or manna from heaven to feed the poor, or maybe 10 consecutive plaques, just something to let us know that your Dad is real, it's been thousands of years since we had proof. Oh, I'm sorry, we are just supposed to believe without asking questions so we can prove our faith. Kinda like the time my pastor told me to stick my finger in a socket and said I wouldn't get electrocuted because faith would prevent my from frying(BTW, mt pastor,thanks for the extra curly hair). And last but not least I would like peace on earth which brings us back to my first christmas wish. Peace obviously won't be achieved until I get my AK-47. How can we have peace when their are others out there who don't belive in you. Thanks baby Jesus, your the best, have a great birthday.

BabyHeyZeus at 6:26PM on Dec 21st 2007

49. Brian, you're giving Dinesh way too much credit. He's not evil. Petty, snide, overbearing, and sanctimonious, but not evil. He's not calling for people to be hurt, jailed, fined, or killed and that's a line you have to cross for me to call you evil.

All Dinesh is is a content provider. That's it. He exists to put something up for us to come to AOL and read and then argue and bicker over until he puts up something else. He's not interested in playing the game, just exploiting manufactured contraversies so that we'll come back tomorrow and read what other people wrote.

That's all he is. And it's all he ever will be. Don't put him on some pedistal of infamy. He's not writing Mein Kamph or the Turner Diaries. Heck, the best he can manage is a collection of strawmen arguments about why all other options are worse than christianity and nationalistic pap about why America is better than countries that aren't America. That's all he can do. He doesn't even approach the line of raving lunacy tap danced upon by the likes of Coultier and Savage. So don't give him more credit than is his due.

This latest "article" is glaring evidence of Dinesh's lacking. "How do atheists celebrate christmas?" Well how do christians celebrate christmas? Do you all go to midnight mass? No. Does that mean that those who don't are somehow less christiany than those who do? Really, if you truly believe in Christ, then shouldn't it not matter if you go to church on christmas? What about people who can't celebrate the Rockwellian ideal of christmas with the family? If you listen to only hymns on christmas then are you more christian than people who like to sing about santa?

It's this gross generalism and... let's face it... dumb moral absolutism that really speaks poorly of christians like Dinesh. Just because some one is an atheist does not make them an unemotional machine. Just because some one is a christian does not make them a saint. We are all individuals. Our families and gatherings are all unique occurances which may, at best, be similar with each other. My family doesn't have christmas dinner. We go to a very nice resturant in the city, and we have since we moved here. It's our tradition. Does that make it any less valued or important than a christian family having their roast bird or beef or ham or whatever? Of course not. Nor does it make it any more valued than their home cooked christmas dinner.

Dinesh can't understand that. Or maybe he can, and even more pitifully, refuses to respect it. And maybe that is what is most galling of all to him: that atheists can respect christians and people of all religions regardless of how right or wrong we believe their faith may be placed.

As for the comments about libertarians... this really jumps the shark. Really from snide innuendos about Harris' drinking to commentary on the moral mores of libertarians? Where did that particular transition come from? I don't generally agree with libertarian principles, but I don't pretend like those who embrase such principles are, as Dinesh ineliquently put it "basically conservatives who are either gay or druggies or people who generally find the conservative moral agenda too restrictive". I think their libertarians and I'm much more interested in what they plan to do than in what they believe should be done.

So please, don't play the Dinesh is evil card. Because before you can say "fundamental hypocrite" he will be using it for his next batch of content for the sole purpose of keeping us coming back to this site over and over and over again.

Somber at 6:31PM on Dec 21st 2007

50.

I can't think of Monty Python without hearing that song in my head....

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm gets wasted
God gets quite irate

All those little kids singing that song in such beautiful harmony tickles me every time!

FL Chick at 6:31PM on Dec 21st 2007

51. Basically, we try to be respectful of whatever beliefs help our friends and loved ones be their best selves. Maybe you should try that some time.

Alice at 6:21PM on Dec 21st 2007
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Alice, it is my 'christmas wish' that Dinesh gets this someday. I think however that he has unfortunately 'sold his soul' a long time ago. Real ('Golden Rule,' if you will permit me) morality will alas, elude him forever, I think. He's not seeking it, so he shall never find it. Mammon is more to his liking.

Brian at 6:31PM on Dec 21st 2007

52. Oh my God! Did Dinesh say libertarians are all gay or druggies? How hilarious! Barry Goldwater just turned over in his grave.
Neocons like Dinesh and his followers don't like libertarians because they are what the Republican party used to be, before they allowed the Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's and the rest of the bad hair televangelists to hijack their party.
And let's not talk about the "un-godly" fiscal irresponsibility of Bush and the GOP the first six years of his administration.
The GOP can only pray (with or without the wacky televangelists) to return to the days of the libertarian model of governing.

David S. at 6:32PM on Dec 21st 2007

53. WE are, silly! Life in general. In fact, it's a dream without a spevific dreamer required, since to think one is required is missing the point. We ALL dream it together. Since we're one. We are the dreamer and the dream.

_______________

Hmmm, hard to refute your evidence there? Brian I just don't know, I guess I'm going on blind faith. Wait a minute? you're going on faith too, just a calculated faith. Faith in the nonsense that we are all dreaming.

Wow, you have cured me of all my stupidity. I guess if I can make up something and say well if I'm wrong, I'll go with the devil worshippers and not the atheists, because athiests are just stupid. Before you comment on that Brian, it was being sarcastic.

Athiests aren't stupid, but Brian basically what you have been saying is, you think something to be therefore it is. Well Philosophy 101 always poses the question whether or not we can believe our senses.

Next, who said we had to see the higher being? When you think do you always include yourself in the thought, or have you have had a third person view of your thought? If its the latter, then I'm sorry your Matrix like theory is no longer fully credible.

But let's say we are dreaming?(There goes that philosophy 101 again). Do we wake up? If we do, what do we wake up to? If we don't wake up, were we ever really dreaming? Because to call something a dream, logic tells us we have to wake up from it. The uncertainty gained from these answers does not in anyway deny the existence of a deity or many deities.

Your argument continues to not deny the existence of a deity.

jasondrhm at 6:38PM on Dec 21st 2007

54. C Michael Pilato - "How do atheists celebrate Christmas? From what I can tell, just like they celebrate most days -- by spewing venom into your blog comments."
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from the New Christian Dictionary: VENOM - truth in spoken form; as in "spewing venom" - speaking the truth.


emma - "Yes, Dinesh, all this is possible without a shred of religion."

He'll never believe it: "You see, Emma, you would never have done any of these things without the benefit of Xtianity... can't you see how obvious this is??"

Trying to convince DD that humanity has evolved an inherent ethical sense (which arguably has been diffused throughout the world by the spread of religion) is a losing proposition. For DD, no xtianity = no civilization.

Michael P. at 6:42PM on Dec 21st 2007

55. 46. Come on man, you just admitted that there is something higher than humans.

xxxxx

Well, I once had a siberian husky who ate a whole tray of maui wowie brownies.

I don't think Bob Marley coulda got that wasted. He slept for 18 hours, got up, played like a 3 month old puppy, ate about three pounds of alpo and slept another 24 hours.

Clif Kuplen at 6:43PM on Dec 21st 2007

56. "when we looked at it, it became real." And primordial soup was the best we could start with?

Brian I've heard your theory on this before and am wondering, where does evolution fit in then? Following your line of thought it would make more sense that the evidence of evolution would be found because the researchers thought (intensely) that they would.

bigTuna at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

57. 49. Brian, you're giving Dinesh way too much credit. He's not evil. Petty, snide, overbearing, and sanctimonious, but not evil. He's not calling for people to be hurt, jailed, fined, or killed and that's a line you have to cross for me to call you evil.
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You're right, of course. He's an Evil Wannabe. If he could do what you say, he would. But he can't. So he contents himself with throwing the apples of discord into society and sucking up the resultant foam of lucrative controversy, either considering himself a brave warrior for christ against the infidels, or perhaps (and more likely) just looking at his growing checkbook with no such delusions.

Just like if Bush and Cheney could have the ovens built tomorrow for people like you and me, Somber, they would. If you doubt that or think me paranoid or exaggerating, then it is my humble opinion that you would be wrong in that. I've considered it very carefully over a period of years now. As much as I respect you, Somber, and recognize that you are among the more thoughtful and articulate of the posters to these boards, I must respectfully disagree with you here. But I don't expect you to believe me. I know it sounds paranoid. Yep. No doubt. I'm not convincing here. Can't help it. Call it intuition. As stupid as it sounds, I just know I'm right. Too many little red flags. The old brand of evil is the same as the new, adjusted for inflation.

Brian at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

58. DD: "As a wine aficionado myself, I cannot begrudge Hitchens his affection for the spirits. In fact, a priest friend of mine once observed that wine is evidence of how much God loves us."

Sort of puts heroin in a new light, doesn't it?

Michael P. at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

59. 56. "when we looked at it, it became real." And primordial soup was the best we could start with?
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Considering that at the time, we were that primordial soup, why not?

Brian at 6:49PM on Dec 21st 2007

60. Well, I once had a siberian husky who ate a whole tray of maui wowie brownies.

I don't think Bob Marley coulda got that wasted. He slept for 18 hours, got up, played like a 3 month old puppy, ate about three pounds of alpo and slept another 24 hours.

____________________

LOL!!!! Praise the Siberian Husky

jasondrhm at 6:51PM on Dec 21st 2007