61. 49. Brian, you're giving Dinesh way too much credit. He's not evil. Petty, snide, overbearing, and sanctimonious, but not evil. He's not calling for people to be hurt, jailed, fined, or killed and that's a line you have to cross for me to call you evil.
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You're right, of course. He's an Evil Wannabe. If he could do what you say, he would. But he can't. So he contents himself with throwing the apples of discord into society and sucking up the resultant foam of lucrative controversy, either considering himself a brave warrior for christ against the infidels, or perhaps (and more likely) just looking at his growing checkbook with no such delusions.

Just like if Bush and Cheney could have the ovens built tomorrow for people like you and me, Somber, they would. If you doubt that or think me paranoid or exaggerating, then it is my humble opinion that you would be wrong in that. I've considered it very carefully over a period of years now. As much as I respect you, Somber, and recognize that you are among the more thoughtful and articulate of the posters to these boards, I must respectfully disagree with you here. But I don't expect you to believe me. I know it sounds paranoid. Yep. No doubt. I'm not convincing here. Can't help it. Call it intuition. As stupid as it sounds, I just know I'm right. Too many little red flags. The old brand of evil is the same as the new, adjusted for inflation.

Brian at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

62. "when we looked at it, it became real." And primordial soup was the best we could start with?

Brian I've heard your theory on this before and am wondering, where does evolution fit in then? Following your line of thought it would make more sense that the evidence of evolution would be found because the researchers thought (intensely) that they would.

bigTuna at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

63. DD: "As a wine aficionado myself, I cannot begrudge Hitchens his affection for the spirits. In fact, a priest friend of mine once observed that wine is evidence of how much God loves us."

Sort of puts heroin in a new light, doesn't it?

Michael P. at 6:47PM on Dec 21st 2007

64. 56. "when we looked at it, it became real." And primordial soup was the best we could start with?
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Considering that at the time, we were that primordial soup, why not?

Brian at 6:49PM on Dec 21st 2007

65. Well, I once had a siberian husky who ate a whole tray of maui wowie brownies.

I don't think Bob Marley coulda got that wasted. He slept for 18 hours, got up, played like a 3 month old puppy, ate about three pounds of alpo and slept another 24 hours.

____________________

LOL!!!! Praise the Siberian Husky

jasondrhm at 6:51PM on Dec 21st 2007

66. Jason, thanks for letting us in on "Atheists aren't stupid".
You might be interested to know thatin fact, atheists are on average smarter than theists.

Richard at 6:56PM on Dec 21st 2007

67. Daniel Mullane is quite incorrect in saying that "Christmas is celebrated roughly the same by all who celebrate the day, be they believers or not."
Christmas is a religious holiday, although not everyone celebrates it as such, irregardless of the fact or non fact that pagan rites may have had some part in its beginning. The gift giving is merely an expression of love for others, although the motives in some cases may be less than desired. More to the point, many Christians celebrate Christmas by attending church services, even though it may not fall on a Sunday. In the Catholic Church, Christmas is a really big deal, to use the vernacular, and several weeks immediately preceding the event comprise the season known as Advent, during which the Church and its people prepare themselves for the big day, the Birthday of Jesus Christ, whose coming did indeed have a truly enormous (perhaps almost unbelievable, when you think about it)impact on the world we live in some 2000 years later. (And let's not worry about the exact date--who cares?)
I invite Daniel to attend a Christmas Mass (a Midnght Mass if you can squeeze in; many Catholics who are poor mass attenders during the year find a way to come at Easter and Christmas)at any Catholic church of his choosing. I assure you, you will be welcome--no ticket, no ID, just show up.But be careful Daniel, you may find something you did not know existed and be haunted by the thought you need to learn more. Should this happen, you will eventually become a Catholic, and be truly happy you did so. I dare you. Oh, by the way, it is easy to fit into the congregation--when everyone stands, stand, when they sit, sit. The only possibly akward moment may come during the few prayers when nearly everyone kneels on the cushioned (yes,we have become softies) kneeling bench. If you prefer, just sit; you'll notice others doing the same. .
A final thought for Daniel, who states that "There is no God". If so, Daniel, what is there? Was there ever a beginning, and will there be an end? We all ask these questions, Catholics, Baptists, whatever. Far better minds than mine have over the centuries asked, and have decided that there is a God.
Have a joyous and blessed Christmas.

James at 7:01PM on Dec 21st 2007

68. Hmm thats a great fact Richard. Isn't it also true that most people that are geniuses are a bit idiosyncratic as well?

jasondrhm at 6:59PM on Dec 21st 2007

69. Brian I just don't know, I guess I'm going on blind faith. Wait a minute? you're going on faith too, just a calculated faith. Faith in the nonsense that we are all dreaming.
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No, actually I read something by Scott Adams, the cartoonist (Dilbert) that got me to thinking, and started doing thought experiments relating to affirmations and self-hypnosis. As predicted, I started to experience synchronicities, and have continues these thought-experiments to this day, with similar results. Too many to count. Too many strange happennings that any christian would genuflect at and call a miracle. Of course it's not provable, not to a truly scientific and objective experiment, ony to me by my subjective experimentation, but people that know me can see it and can't explain it. One of them was a baptist that lost her faith due to it. She thought briefly that I was Satan...

I've approached it with a very cynical eye, but it remains standing in spite of my honest efforts to explain it away. So, I have the same sort of "proof" that Observant has, in that I can see extraordinary happennings, but I do not credit them to any supernatural agency as he does. No, I see it as what nature is in the first place. I see it as a consciousness basis to reality rather than a physical one. I said that reality is like a dream, and of course you went off on the logic of normal dreams, but it's not THAT much like a normal dream. It's only a "dream" in the sense of it being all consciousness and no real matter. In reality, it's more "real" than hard matter is. In reality, it's the matter that is the dream, as in, unreal.

As some poet once said...

Is all that we seek and seem
But a dream within a dream?

It is. But seing it is not easy from within the dream.

Brian at 7:02PM on Dec 21st 2007

70. The holy hand-grenade of antioch. Monty Python had some good moments.

a born atheist at 7:01PM on Dec 21st 2007

71. I'm not aware of any studies between genius and idiosyncranism. But I would be willing to examine the evidence that supports your argument. To what end I am not sure, but I'll look at it.

Richard at 7:03PM on Dec 21st 2007

72. Let me first ask you this question. How did you think the Christian Nazi army of Hitler celebrated Christmas?.. I will tell you how as recorded in countless first eye witness accounts (many by former nazi, other by their victims as well as video and audio documentaries). They spent Christmas drinking until they pass. Germany as you may know is a great land of many great thinkers and geniuses, but back then it was disgraced by a bunch of Christian fools lead by Christian Adolf Hitler-whom many Christians said he was not a true member of their faith, but yet, if he was brought up Christian and accepted Christ, that is all it takes folks as per those who lead the church. No Christian is free of sin so they can not say he was not just on the basis of his crimes, murderers and his ugly and monster nature.

I will also tell you how many Christian prostitutes celebrate Christmas, the oldest business have no holiday breaks as you might have heard, but you can see more on the internet, on sites like Johnstv.com (not sure on the spelling but they often place videos on youtube on how they catch the female prostitutes and their patrons).

How do you think Christian George W. Bush and Christian Richard Cheney (better known as Dick for more reasons than one) celebrate Christmas. Enjoying the priviledge of the job the stole through the conservative Supreme Court vote in 2000. The question can better be, how do they sleep at night after draining our economy of a TRILLION dollars, cost us thousands of young soldiers deaths as well as many thousands more left crippled for life or badly affected mentally. They celebrate Christmas as you would see on TV, with lots of celebrities singing for them at the Fords theater and enjoying wealthy parties where special interest like those who run Hullibarton, the joyous weapon making company that like others will hate that the war be over since it has added many billions of dollars to their already rich pockets.
How do you think all those thousands of murderers in jail in the US and over the world celebrate Christmas, since they are mostly Chritian, perhaps wishing they could escape to do the same that got them there or waiting for the extra food rations that most likely they get during the holidays and the little perks the sick souls enjoy at this time.

How would you celebrate Christmas Mr. D'souza instead of Eastern Asian holidays celebrated by your ancestors for centuries in their land before you converted to Christianity (perhaps to join those who you would not have a chance at even get close by if you were not part of their faith, such as the sick Rev. Pat Robertson and the like). People who just based on your origins and race will not even open the door for you unless you were a guess on their show and had something to add to their bigotry agenda which they thank you for.
Most decent and law abiding atheists families are not friends of the alcohol bottle as you portray Mr. Hitchens (whom you call a friend before you call an alcoholic and a fool using other words).
I am an atheist and I have never in my life gotten drunk or even touch or smell a drug or been arrested or hanged around bad crowds as so many of Christian peers I used to attend high school and college with did and have. Unlike them, I don't go to football games to flash on someone or get drunk and have sex in the car like many Christian young people I know do almost every weekend.

The celebration of Christmas is the celebration of a lie that has run for over 2000 years as other lies have. It is a matter of believing in it or not and many good decent people like myself (a former Christian) are done with it.
I will tell you how I celbrate Christmas,volunteering to help get food for the homeless. Helping in hospitals and shelters. Writing to Senators and local Congressmen to pass legislation that help the poor, the uninsured and the sick. Writing on behalf of health care for all Americans. Also writing against the war and the lies under it that have cost this great nation so much and gained so little in return.
I spent Christmas sober, not drunk and on drugs like so millions of Christians in this country and others who die or cause someone to die for driving drunk during this season.
I celebrate Christmas as I do just any other day. Not making so much money as the business owners of every faith (including Muslims and Jews) who despite ignoring or hating Christmas enjoy the fact it happens for it truly multiplies their wealth, even when they dislike its origin as I do.

Your question is just another way to pit people against one another here. No wonder why people like Rev. Pat Robertson invited you to their show. Not because you are bright or a crowd bringer, but because you are known for upsetting people with dumb questions that pin them against each other and a fight about issues usually brings more people than saying something nice that may only bring the few nice people who care to comment.

At the end of each day I have done much more good than most Christians I know and that is in and of itself a celebration for I bring more good to this world than bad even when I don't subscribe to any faith or fall into their lies, money collections and minds control. The flipside of it is that when I need to travel, I have to line at the airport like any average person who is not rich instead of like some of those I mentioned here who have made fortunes brainwashing fools and just hop inside their own private planes checking their Rolex watches to calculate how much time is there between their departure and arrival to another public gathering of fools that will increase their bank account and status among the like.

Rick at 7:12PM on Dec 21st 2007

73. Brian, I will disagree with you, respectfully.

Ultimately, Bush and Cheney want compliance. They've proven they can get that regardless of anything congress does, and since we haven't risen up en masse yet then we probably never will. If we get another 9/11 in September and Bush 'temporarily suspends the political process till the state of emergency is resolved' then I'll agree that we've gone full 1984. But honestly Bush and Cheney have gotten away with almost everything they could have ever dreamed. Halliburton and Blackwater have siphoned billions of tax dollars that would never have been possible without a protracted occupation. The media has never been more compliant and congress has basically told Bush that they will never impeach him. With a green light like that, Bush doesn't need to stoop to true monsterdom. He accomplishes far more by keeping us bitching and griping but never taking action. Things would be a lot more serious if there was a mob outside the whitehouse throwing molotov cocktails, but there isn't.

Sadly, I don't think Americans really know how to rebel any more. We see things that are really wrong, but almost no one protests anymore. Where's a million 'merican march to Washington to oppose the war. Or a ten million march? Where the violence? Where's the rage? Where are the lone gunmen willing to give up their lives to try and make those responsible answer for their actions? Instead we sit at home and type words of soundless rage and watch the TV, shake our heads at the monstrousness of it all, and go about our lives. As if the actions of this administration and its consequences are another episode of "The West Wing" or "24".

No Brian. Bush isn't going to set up ovens. He doesn't have to. Words don't matter to an administration like this. Even Dinesh was right when he said that Bush is utterly deaf to criticism... sadly, he praised it as a virtue. So long as Bush's critics fight him with empty phrases, so long as people refuse to do anything substantial, then he has nothing to worry about.

And how sad is that?

Somber at 7:06PM on Dec 21st 2007

74. Brian I've heard your theory on this before and am wondering, where does evolution fit in then?
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Well, to put into the context of what I'm talking about, consciousness evolved, and as it did, the matter that represented it in this dream, this reality (primitive molecules, primordial soup, etc) also evolved. The mechanism of natural selection might well be due to the sense of logic present in the observers (such as Darwin) attempting to explain evolution of higher forms. Once they did construct a rational explanation based on the observations, at that instant, reality accomodated them by making it so. And it was "set in stone" because it is so logical and fits in with the rest of our scientific materialistic view of reality. Science is an extension of logic, which while a construct of our brains, is now also the ground of natural law, since if it isn't logical, it doesn't fit our view of reality, so we don't see it as real. And since natural law itself is also ultimately a product of our brains, our logic, and not the reverse as is usually assumed.

I know, I know. Why do I even try? Whenever I talk about my spirituality, christians always jump on it as somehow evidence that I might buy into theirs. The problem here is that I can see what yours really is, and you cannot. Having that knowledge renders your attempts humorous at best.

Brian at 7:17PM on Dec 21st 2007

75. Somber, I hope that you are right and that I am mistaken. I truly do.

I want to be wrong. I hope that I am.

Brian at 7:20PM on Dec 21st 2007