How do atheists celebrate Christmas? I posed that question to my friend Michael Shermer, the editor of Skeptic, during our recent Cal Tech debate. (My two debates with Shermer will soon be up on the web and I'll link to them on this blog.) Shermer replied that he puts up Christmas trees, and his kids sing Christmas carols--even the religious ones--and he exchanges gifts just like everyone else. Here is a guy who is not a believer but who at least respects what Christianity has done to shape our civilization and our world.
Then there's Christopher Hitchens, whom I've known over the years and like just as much. Hitchens, alas, seems to be letting his atheism get to him. First, the poor man is never seen without a drink. As a wine aficionado myself, I cannot begrudge Hitchens his affection for the spirits. In fact, a priest friend of mine once observed that wine is evidence of how much God loves us. It seems odd, however, that Hitchens feels the need to imbibe even when he's on national television or giving a public speech. If you watch our debate on C-Span or on my website dineshdsouza.com, you'll see that Hitchens reaches for his glass with the same alacrity that fundamentalists reach for the Bible.
Recently Hitchens appeared at a "secular Christmas party" thrown by the libertarian magazine Reason. Many libertarians are basically conservatives who are either gay or druggies or people who generally find the conservative moral agenda too restrictive. So they flee from the conservative to the libertarian camp where much wider parameters of personal behavior are embraced. To the sensible idea of political and economic freedom many libertarians add the more controversial principle of moral freedom, the freedom to live however you want as long as you don't harm others. Hitchens, needless to say, is at home in this group.
Hitchens' contribution to the party was to read an irreverent Christmas ditty by the lyricist Tom Lehrer. Remember Lehrer? He's a bit of a relic, like the Monty Python and the Rocky Horror movies. When I was eighteen and a freshman at Dartmouth I found Lehrer and Monty Python very sophisticated and amusing. Most of us, however, outgrow the juvenile sense of humor that they represent. Hitchens also offered a brief summary of his view that God is a celestial dictator. He portrayed God as a kind of Kim Jong-il and Jesus as a kind of little Kim waiting to inherit the throne. So here we see another portrait of Atheist Christmas: bitter guys making sophomoric jokes and staggering out of the room inebriated.
Yes, I agree that many nominal Christians have also forgotten the message of Christmas. Even so I wonder: what's the atheist equivalent of Christmas? Darwin's birthday? For many libertarians I suppose it's the day they get their tax refunds.
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How Atheists Celebrate Christmas
Posted Dec 21st 2007 2:42PM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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Reader Comments ( Page 53 of 54)
781. Clif Kuplen posted:
Porque nada, torquemada?
*******
¡Ah, español! ¿Puede usted entender el español, Clif? Quizás usted puede entender éste entonces.
De cuerdo y loco todos tenemos un poco.
It's an oldie, but a goodie. Please excuse any grammatical errors. I haven't cracked a Spanish book in years. ;)
Clif's posted excerpts are in quotation marks.
"As someone who doesn't run to wikipedia and think he's educated. Crack a book once in awhile."
Grand-paw-paw,
I don't HAVE TO embark on some erudite odyssey to find the things that you and others are posting here. Posting ad nauseam.
Wikipedia, hell! All you have to do is turn the History Channel or the National Geographic Channel on the telly to witness your esoterica. It really is that easy. Hate to burst your bubble.
Well... actually I'd like to do just that. Good gawd! Someone needs to.
"None of the things you think of as christlike were yet associated with the figure. Read about Sol Invictis and mithra and the legends."
What things do I think about Christ or any other mythical or historical figure? It doesn't matter. You don't want to talk to anyone. You want to talk AT them. Posters other than linda, a born atheist, (a boring) ATHEIST, you, et al. will be cut to pieces with smart-assed-smack-talk anyhow. We're all just dumbed down christo-morons, in need of your enlightenment. Teach us, oh Grand Masters of Snotty Merit. We can only hope to begin to comprehend you. Your attitudes smell of the medieval Church you rail against. A teacher that looks down upon his students is no teacher that I could ever learn from.
Ya know... Confucius once said, "In teaching there should be no distinction of classes."
Of course, he probably didn't really exist anyway, either.
"But first, get out of wikipedia and look for some legitimate sources. Wikipedia is a good place to start research, but if you end there and have to cite it, you've dismissed yourself out of hand. You've rita-ized (?) your ability to be taken seriously."
As if this is a forum of the serious. As if I conducted research. As if I care enough to be anything more than a troll facing other trolls. I quoted wikipedia because the 60 seconds it took to find what I posted was about 45 seconds longer than what I should have spent on the likes of you. Time is money. I make a lot of it because of how smart I am - that kind of intelligence matters more than yours anyday. Stick that up your social darwinism and rotate on it. Who cares about the true origins of our winter holiday? Cite all of the high-falooting references that you want. All Christmas is nowadays is a great big second birthday for everyone.
"I understand your bitterness at my generation. Frankly we used up all the fun.
There's none left and all you get is aids, fascism, jesus in your pants and real cheap cell phones."
Bitterness against your generation?! Haw haw. Calling an old douchebag for what he is hardly registers as that. You're barely a blip on my radar. Or, maybe that's gay-dar, what with your references to aids and what's in my pants. There's a LOT of fun left in my life. There's also a LOT of life left in my life. A LOT more than what you've got left, I'll bet.
"As a contemporary of Mithras I was also a contemporary of your boy jesus. That's right, I knew the boy - he lived over in the projects. And I warned him - boy, don't you go fuckin' with them jews with no money!"
Now that was funny. No, really. I mean that. You do have a lot of wit, Clif - but a funny prick is still a prick.
"Well, you got the blogular equivalent of a lump of coal there."
Thankee Santa. Your milk and cookies await you on the mantel.
Merry Mithras!
torquemada at 2:53AM on Dec 25th 2007
782. goddess1prevail posted:
"Torquemada,
I can't believe you back up your sources using Wikipedia, the peoples encyclopedia, not the scholars."
See post to Clif above.
"These SAVIORS came before Jesus:
Horus of Egypt 5,000 years ago!
Mithras of Persia
Attis, of Phyrigia
Dionysus of Greece
Krishna, of India
Jesus of Nazareth
Iman of Islam
Same plagiarized story told over again......
How duped and blind Christians are to believe their story is original..."
So Jesus of Nazareth came before Jesus. I'm blind, huh?
Why do you think I'm Christian? Because I got a little saucy with a member of the local clique? I posted what I posted because I felt like messing with Clif just a little. Now, that makes me one of the "others."
You know doodley-squat of my beliefs, or if I even have any to begin with.
By the way, what's with the goddess1prevail moniker? You're not one of those kookie-assed Wiccans, are you?
*wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wicca wop WOP!*
Pac-man's dead!
torquemada at 4:01AM on Dec 25th 2007
783. what's wrong with some materialisms? after all if people don't buy gifts for there loved ones millions of people would loose there jobs The Economy runs on buying goods made buy working people....and lets not also forget people buy for others more then for themselfs for christmas.
It makes me feel good to buy something and give to others less fortunate then me..by no means do I have lots of money i dont im just an immigrant
but thankful to God for the little i have and
love to share by blessing with others..
Merry_Christmas....
susie at 1:05PM on Dec 25th 2007
784. "To the sensible idea of political and economic freedom many libertarians add the more controversial principle of moral freedom, the freedom to live however you want as long as you don't harm others."
It's only controversial among morons who surrender their morals to religion. For the rest of us, the idea that you should be able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm others is pretty damn obvious.
"Many libertarians are basically conservatives who are either gay or druggies..."
And you call Tom Lehrer and Monty Python juvenile. How deliciously ironic! Your columns here are the worst kind of unsophisticated, juvenile atheist-baiting. You're basically a troll who has been given a soapbox by dint of the fact that you're popular amongst idiots who think your pseudo-intellectualism is somehow insightful. Although in this forum, you forgo even pseudo-intellectualism and go straight for infantile jabs, like claiming Hitchens' atheism makes him drink. Wow, good one!
skylights at 1:34PM on Dec 25th 2007
785. Why SHOULD atheists celebrate Christmas or any other religious holiday? (And if you are a non-believer who nonetheless celebrates Christmas, spouting some nonsensical blather about just wanting to "celebrate the spirit of the season," or whatever, please face the fact that you are merely seeking ways to rationalize wanting to hold on to what you were raised with.) I was raised Roman Catholic, and my husband was raised Orthodox Jewish. We have both been atheists since we were young adults. How do we "celebrate" Dec. 25? Merely by enjoying a day off from work at home together! Our families have come to understand that we don't "do" holidays of any sort or in any way whatsoever. Our son grew up knowing that we loved him a great deal, and he did not need Christmas presents as proof of our love. The only days of the year that mean anything special to us are our birthdays and our wedding anniversary. And I myself really like Jan. 1, as it marks a new beginning. (And no, I don't care about the solstice, either. I'll take cold weather over hot weather any day.) I'm a breast cancer survivor, and so every time I see the start of a new year, I'm newly glad to still be alive.
My husband wrote an essay about why atheists should not give in and celebrate Christmas. See our web site, www.dvorkin.com, if you are interested.
Wishing all of you peace, good health, and happiness in the new year,
Leonore H. Dvorkin / Denver, CO
Leonore Dvorkin at 2:13PM on Dec 25th 2007
786. I was waiting for a response, to my post (769) from Lucille (on posts 711 & 713) and her angry reply to them. I guess being a good christian means 'picking and choosing' what you think makes you a good christian, otherwise I am sure she would have responded. Happy holidays everyone.
smudge358 at 2:35PM on Dec 25th 2007
787. Anytime you use group labels to spread mistrust and hate ("atheist" or "christian" or "muslim" or whatever) you are maligning individuals who don't fit the stereotype you're trying to promote. When those individuals answer you (often in kind) it's comforting to call it "venom" but more likely it's an uncomfortable reflection of yourself.
More honest to say Hitchins is a jerk, or D'Souza is a jerk, and that perhaps they deserve each other.
I'm an atheist and by most measures not a bad guy, though I lack the "virtue" of believing in things for which there is no empirical evidence. I spent Christmas with my family and have no problem with good wishes in the Holiday, whatever one believes.
george.w at 4:30PM on Dec 25th 2007
788. "How do atheists celebrate Christmas? From what I can tell, just like they celebrate most days -- by spewing venom into your blog comments."
Considering the venom IN this author's essays, I find that the height of irony.
slpage at 5:56PM on Dec 25th 2007
789. Dinesh,
This is just for you:
"The Lord is my Shepherd, and sometimes he gets lonely."
- A new prayer
TikiHead at 3:13PM on Dec 31st 2007
790. Hey... Jesus is alive & Maurice - posting the same thing over and over again is just plain lazy.
fabio at 11:19PM on Dec 25th 2007
791. http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
prffsrx at 5:48AM on Dec 26th 2007
792. Rock on, Dinesh!
And all those atheists who think that Christians do not think they are good people, you are worng. Many atheists are great people who are caring and compasionate. The point isn;t who is better - we are all children of God whether we want to admit it or not, thus there is no "better" or "worse". The simple division between the two are that one group choses salvation while the other group does not.
Merry Christ-mas!!!!!
Peter Feige at 9:05AM on Dec 26th 2007
793. "the sensible idea of political and economic freedom many libertarians add the more controversial principle of moral freedom, the freedom to live however you want as long as you don't harm others. "
I am curious how any putatively sane or intelligent person could consider this very simple, very basic, idea to be "controversial". Indeed, I'd call the degree of acceptance of it a fair measure of an individual's intelligence and sanity. To my mind, this is akin to "the controversial idea that the world is round". Yes, there's a handful of nutters out there who don't believe it, but the mere fact they don't tells you all you need to know about them.
As for how atheists celebrate Christmas...well, being born Jewish, I never had to worry about it, but since I married into a believing Christian family, I celebrate it by getting/giving presents, cooking and eating a huge dinner, and watching favorite videos while talking and laughing. Apparently, this somehow makes me less of an atheist, though you'd never know it from the 6 hour theological debates my wife and I have on long car trips. So it goes.
Lizard at 9:13AM on Dec 26th 2007
794. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son; that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Personally, I'd rather live my life as if there's God and die to find out there isn't than to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is. Pretty much common sense, I'd think.
Mary at 11:42AM on Dec 26th 2007
795. This is just ridiculous. My celebration of Christmas is the habit of a lifetime, added to pure enjoyment of a happy, beautiful holiday. You don't have to be a Christian or even respect the religion to enjoy giving and receiving gifts, singing beautiful music, and decorating your house. Most of which dates back to pagan ritual anyway! It means NOTHING about what I personally think of Jesus or Christianity.
Your summary of libertarians is both insulting and wrong; although I am not one I find it offensive. For one thing, you act like Republicans can't be gay...may I introduce you to the Log Cabin Republicans? Also, my parents are Republican and Christian, and have no problem with accepting gay people.
Lastly, attacking Hutchins for alcoholism? Low. That's really, really low. You seem to be implying all atheists are alcoholics, and turn to it because they don't have god in their lives. Well, guess who else was a raging alcoholic? My childhood priest!
Louisa at 12:22PM on Dec 26th 2007