Daniel Dennett's Pathetic Fallacy

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Daniel Dennett's Pathetic Fallacy

Posted Jan 7th 2008 12:02AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism

Following my debate with Daniel Dennett, several atheists described Dennett's performance as "pathetic." If you want to see if they are right, you can watch the debate here. The term "pathetic," however, can be used in more than one sense. The Pathetic Fallacy (also called the Anthropomorphic Fallacy) is a term of art that refers to the error of attributing human qualities to inanimate objects. A brilliant recent book argues that this fallacy lies at the heart of the work of thinkers like Daniel Dennett.
Reading Dennett and others, you get the impression that science has demonstrated the material foundations of the human mind. Indeed we as humans are nothing more than atoms and molecules, and our self-conception is a kind of illusion generated by the neurons firing in our heads. Ultimately it is to evolution that we must turn, in Dennett's view, to understand who we are and how we function.

But in Philosophical Foundations of Neuroscience, Maxwell Bennett and Peter Hacker challenge this materialist understanding as promoted by Dennett and others. Bennett is a leading neuroscientist at the University of Sydney. He also directs the Brain and Mind Research Institute. Reviewing the state of scientific knowledge about the brain, Bennett concludes that the notion that science currently has "major insights into the workings of the synaptic networks in any part of the brain" is both "misplaced" and the product of "hubris." According to Bennett, who knows what he is talking about, Dennett and other non-scientists are portraying science as having figured out things that science is a very long way from figuring out.

Peter Hacker, an Oxford philosopher who is considered the world's leading authority on Wittgenstein, takes Dennett and like-minded writers to task for attributing to an inanimate object, namely the brain, qualities that are properly assigned to human beings like you and me. Hacker cites Dennett as claiming that brains are conscious and gather information and make simplifying assumptions and use supporting information and arrive at conclusions. Hacker argues that this is a classic case of the pathetic fallacy.

In Hacker's view, brains aren't conscious; we are conscious. Brains don't gather or use information; human beings do. Brains don't draw conclusions; you and I do. Of course we use our brains to perceive and reason, just as we use our hands and feet to play tennis. But it is just as absurd to say that my hands and feet are playing tennis as it is to say that my racket is playing tennis. By the same token it is wrong to portray the brain as perceiving, thinking or even being aware of anything.

If it is humans that possess the qualities that Dennett and others attribute to the brain, it follows that the brain is an inanimate object, like the pancreas. We as human beings function with and through the operation of these devices, but it hardly follows that we are "nothing more" than the sum total of them. Materialism--the doctrine that reduces man to his material makeup--is revealed not as a necessary conclusion of modern science but rather as as atheist dogma masquerading as science.

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Reader Comments ( Page 58 of 59)

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856. pboy said: "I think that your breaking down of your cosmological 'proof'(if I might call it that) is a wonderful example of religionist/propagandist technique. (The universe genus... and 'our universe's laws and such)"

pboy, I'm flattered that you think I have somehow studied religionis/propagandist technique. In terms of debate, I am just a layman. Every time somebody posts on here, I feel that it is important to scrutinize their posts. I even felt the need to show Dena that I disagreed about her idea of who was a Christian and who wasn't, even though we are supposedly "on the same side" (although I am sure she and I have some very different views). I am not simply trying to refute atheists. Admittedly, I have a bias toward my world view, and it is from this view that I filter these posts. In the sake of honesty and truth, I do try to drop those filters and see where everybody else is coming from, but at the end of the day , I am a Christian, saved by the grace of God through the blood of Jesus.

I have heard some pretty compelling arguments from the atheist side, but nothing faith shaking for me... I'm sure some atheists who read this will assume that's because I choose to believe in magic and fairy tales rather than truth, because I am a mental midget...

Well, they're probably right. I'm obviously an idiot.

Anyways, pboy, my point is that I am not a propagandist and I am not a seasoned debator (I'm sure atheists will jump all over that concession). I have attempted to understand atheist reason (in terms of cosmology, ontology, etc.), and I simply don't. My feeble mind does not comprehend the issue of infinite regress that atheism consistently leads to. That's not to be offensive, that's just how I feel.

In light of the post that your referenced, I absolutely see a need for a cause to this universe. Most atheists (that I have come across)use the universe as the metaphysical primary. One problem that I have with this idea, is this:

if the universe is the metaphysical primary, then we must use univeral laws (or natural law) to define all existence, including the existence of our universe.

To say that the universe has always existed and to say that it is the metaphyscial primary is to say that it is self-existent.

Now I must pose the question, "is it possible for something to be self-existent when governed by space and time?"

The fact is, everything that we can percieve had a cause. This makes everything that we percieve a "Contingent Cause," meaning that it's cause was contingent on something else.

In a space/time realm, there cannot be an "uncaused first cause," unless you believe that "something" can from "nothing." That idea is way too "mystical" for any atheist that I have encountered in here (except maybe clif, who believes our universe is a membrane in the midst of other "universe membranes").

So, if you follow my logic, you must admit that, if we can only use universal laws to define existence, then something must always come from something (if you disagree, please explain your alternative idea). Therefore, the universe, which is something, had to come from something else. And that something had to come from something... infinite regress.

Here is my explanation: God, whose existence transcends our 4 dimensional domain (known as the universe) into dimensions beyond that which we can perceive, which are not bound by space and time, created the universe.

When I am asked who created God or where did He come from, the answer is simple: If God exists in dimensions that are not bound (or defined) by space and time, then there is no "before and after" for Him. Can I prove this? No. But, logically, it makes more sense than a self existent universe.

Mark at 3:29AM on Jan 14th 2008

857. DENA...

All life on this planet is connected. Life on this planet is all connected biochemically. The reason that we can and do eat the products of living things is BECAUSE we are all biochemically connected.

If every species of plant and animal, bacteria and virus were NOT connected, scientists would have NOTICED this a long time ago.

You must know that there are food chains... for example plants get nutrition from the CO2 in the air plus many different substances which they draw up through their roots.

Plants must have been around on this planet for those insects and animals and birds to eat the plants and seeds of the plants.

It doesn't make any sense for GOD to make us carnivores. Just as it does not make any sense for GOD to like the smell of burning meat(a la Bible) or for GOD to inspire the ancients to tell us that HE lived in the sky, he was spirit(air) etc. only to need to evolve the notion of GOD to live outside our material existence completely a few thousand years later. Remember, to GOD, a thousand years is like a day.

To stick with human/animal comparisons, I am not sure how many different 'kinds' of animals that there are supposed to be, but did you know that there are about 1,500 different kinds of Christians in North America today.

Imagine 1,500 people (each from one of these different churches) coming together in a cathedral or somewhere and each one willing to say, "Yes, I am Christian, but I have at least one fundamental difference between me and everyone else in this place, but I, and only I, know the real truth!"

If you can imagine this, AND you can imagine that all Christians know the absolute truth... that is called compartmentalized thinking.

Isn't that right, DENA? Would you give me that one?

How about you, Mark, would you at least acknowledge that fact?

pboyfloyd at 3:35AM on Jan 14th 2008

858. To Post 846

I don't really care what Dennett believes, except for his smug, self-satisfied attempt to put forward his "novel" idea that children should not be indoctrinated by their families/communities but by self-appointed, "rationallly" minded experts in the field of sarcastic skepticism.

The problem with this innovative style of education is that it is not "novel" at all but was a employed by all of the great Atheist dictatorships, including Stalin and Mao, in order to separate children from their parents and increase the control of the state over society.

In these societies children were encouraged and often did betray their parents as traitors, who were then exiled or tortured by the authorities.

So it would seem that despite the denials of Atheists that dis-belief does not account for totalitarianism's barbarity, the Atheism of Dennett (and his accolytes) and Stalin do lead to the same idea of abusive child indoctrination.

Stig at 4:06AM on Jan 14th 2008

859. "It doesn't make any sense for GOD to make us carnivores."

We are omnivores and can survive off of both (vegetarians). It could be that God allowed us the choice.

"Just as it does not make any sense for GOD to like the smell of burning meat(a la Bible)"

It wasn't like a BBQ. It had to due with sacrifice and purification laws.

"or for GOD to inspire the ancients to tell us that HE lived in the sky, he was spirit(air) etc."

please quote the scripture(s) that says that so I can see it in its context.

"only to need to evolve the notion of GOD to live outside our material existence completely a few thousand years later."

The more we understand our material existence, the more necessity we have for something OUTSIDE of our material existence to have CAUSED our material existence

"Remember, to GOD, a thousand years is like a day."

I'm not sure what the significance (to you) of that statement is.

"To stick with human/animal comparisons, I am not sure how many different 'kinds' of animals that there are supposed to be, but did you know that there are about 1,500 different kinds of Christians in North America today."

Cool, as long as the essentials are the same - grace through faith in Jesus and belief that Jesus is the second person in the Trinity and that He died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected so that we may have new life.

"Imagine 1,500 people (each from one of these different churches) coming together in a cathedral or somewhere and each one willing to say, "Yes, I am Christian, but I have at least one fundamental difference between me and everyone else in this place, but I, and only I, know the real truth!""

See comment on last statement... There are differing methodologies of seeking and worshipping and different beliefs on many things - as long as the essentials are correct, we can all call ourselves brothers and sisters in the Lord and have confidence that we are worshipping the same God.

"If you can imagine this, AND you can imagine that all Christians know the absolute truth... that is called compartmentalized thinking."

Most Christians believe in absolute truth and they believe this truth to be that God created the universe, that man's sinned seperated him from God, and that the sacrifice of Jesus brings us back into communion with God, ultimately resulting in a heavenly domain. Beyond the essentials, there is much that we can debate in Christian circles, and that is fine. That does not negate the work of Christ.

Isn't that right, DENA? Would you give me that one?

"How about you, Mark, would you at least acknowledge that fact?"

You would have to define compartmentalized thinking for me... but I will probably disagree anyways, because I don't think we have the same understanding of Christianity.

Mark at 4:11AM on Jan 14th 2008

860. "It doesn't make any sense for GOD to make us carnivores."

We are omnivores and can survive off of both (vegetarians). It could be that God allowed us the choice.

"Just as it does not make any sense for GOD to like the smell of burning meat(a la Bible)"

It wasn't like a BBQ. It had to due with sacrifice and purification laws.

"or for GOD to inspire the ancients to tell us that HE lived in the sky, he was spirit(air) etc."

please quote the scripture(s) that says that so I can see it in its context.

"only to need to evolve the notion of GOD to live outside our material existence completely a few thousand years later."

The more we understand our material existence, the more necessity we have for something OUTSIDE of our material existence to have CAUSED our material existence

"Remember, to GOD, a thousand years is like a day."

I'm not sure what the significance (to you) of that statement is.

"To stick with human/animal comparisons, I am not sure how many different 'kinds' of animals that there are supposed to be, but did you know that there are about 1,500 different kinds of Christians in North America today."

Cool, as long as the essentials are the same - grace through faith in Jesus and belief that Jesus is the second person in the Trinity and that He died on the cross for our sins and was resurrected so that we may have new life.

"Imagine 1,500 people (each from one of these different churches)coming together in a cathedral or somewhere and each one willing to say, "Yes, I am Christian, but I have at least one fundamental difference between me and everyone else in this place, but I, and only I, know the real truth!""

See comment on last statement... There are differing methodologies of seeking and worshipping and different beliefs on many things - as long as the essentials are correct, we can all call ourselves brothers and sisters in the Lord and have confidence that we are worshipping the same God.

"If you can imagine this, AND you can imagine that all Christians know the absolute truth... that is called compartmentalized thinking."

Most Christians believe in absolute truth and they believe this truth to be that God created the universe, that man's sinned seperated him from God, and that the sacrifice of Jesus brings us back into communion with God, ultimately resulting in a heavenly domain. Beyond the essentials, there is much that we can debate in Christian circles, and that is fine. That does not negate the work of Christ.

Isn't that right, DENA? Would you give me that one?

"How about you, Mark, would you at least acknowledge that fact?"

You would have to define compartmentalized thinking for me... but I will probably disagree anyways, because I don't think we have the same understanding of Christianity.

Mark at 4:16AM on Jan 14th 2008

861. K. Gnite all. Pboy, read 855 and let me know what you think

Mark at 4:23AM on Jan 14th 2008

862. Mark, you have had over a week to suck erect penises in your indoctrinating bible study group, and you still haven't formulated an answer to my question.
The question was: Why does your fringe lunatic religious group make use of mysticism and gnosticism to interpret symbolism in the bible for the ultimate truth of gods word?

JefFlyingV at 4:52AM on Jan 14th 2008

863. Mark...
"It doesn't make any sense for GOD to make us carnivores."

I meant 'us' as in all of us animals.(eating each other being a 'bad thing', y'see?)

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You say, "It wasn't like a BBQ. It had to due with sacrifice and purification laws."

Exodus 28..

18... It is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the LORD.
25...the burnt offering for a pleasing aroma to the LORD,
41...a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the LORD.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You say, "please quote the scripture"

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit

L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath,
"related to spirare "to breathe (hence AIR)

The ancient Hebrews spoke of heaven as a great ocean in the sky. A dome was said to cover the earth and kept back the heavenly ocean (Gen 1:6,7). Rain was said to fall on earth when God opened windows in the heavenly ceiling (Gen 7:11-12; Isa 24:18; Mal 3:10). Because this heavenly dome was so heavy, it had to be held up by pillars (Job 26:11).

God lives and rules in heaven (1 Kgs 8:30; Isa 66:1; Matt 5:34). Heaven is also where God's court meets (Gen 1:26; 3:22; Job 1:6; 2:1; 15:7,8). Some of Israel's prophets had visions of God in heaven (1 Kgs 22:19), and the prophet Elijah was taken up to heaven in a strong wind (2 Kgs 2:1-12). The apostle Paul also spoke of being taken up into a "third heaven," where he heard wonderful things (2 Cor 12:1-4). A man named John had a vision of heaven that revealed secrets about the future (Rev. 4:1-22:17).http://www.bibles.com/brcpages/heaven

I think that we can take it as a given that the Hebrews did not know about the vacuum of outer space?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

You say, "The more we understand our material existence, the more necessity we have for something OUTSIDE of our material existence to have CAUSED our material existence."

That is just not true at all, Mark. If dead time/space/matter needs 'ultimate causing'... how much more 'ultimate causing' does a living being(GOD) need? Plus, your "merely a theory" needs more dimensions than we can account for, no?

(I'll cut this up... give you a chance to get your 'marbles rolling'.

It is not a simple task to write about Christianity. There are on the order of 1,500 different Christian faith groups in North America which promote many different and conflicting beliefs. Further, many groups believe that they alone are the "true" Christian church and that all of the others are in error. As a result, one cannot write an introduction or a history of Christianity that is acceptable to all faith groups.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_intr.htm

pboyfloyd at 4:57AM on Jan 14th 2008

864. In response to your post 854. I must ba an asshole, because I had expected a better educated, enunciated and formulated response than what you have given.

JefFlyingV at 5:06AM on Jan 14th 2008

865. Mark...

You say, "You would have to define compartmentalized thinking for me..."

Compartmentalized thinking is when you have opposing ideas in your head at the same time... and you can think either one way or the other... in the book '1984' it's called doublethink.

Imagine a preacher telling his flock, "I am ecstatic that our flock has reached epic proportions, your donations have been so generous, it brings tears to my eyes... but all is not well, there are many back-sliders in the community, if you look around you, you will notice many empty pews! If this keeps up we won't be able to afford that new roof AND feed the poor!"

Religion encourages doublethink like '1984'...

Freedom isn't free! (If you need to pay for freedom, it's certainly not freedom then, is it?)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

America is a Christian Nation and we have separation of Church and State...

" While the terms country, state, and nation are often used interchangeably, there is a difference.
A State (note the capital "S") is a self-governing political entity. The term State can be used interchangeably with country.

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State."
http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm

Some Christians like to doublethink these notions... the Nation IS the State among themselves when it suits them and is NOT the State when THAT suits them.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Some simple stuff, like science is knowledge, technology AND science is SATANIC LIES(evolution/Darwinism.)

Similarly saying that the universe is intelligently designed is (somehow) science!

The power of prayer WORKS!!! God sometimes says, "No!" (This brings the power of prayer back to the level of pure chance!)

Jesus died for our sins! Jesus rose from the dead! Jesus lives! Jesus is in Heaven! When we die we go to be with Jesus in Heaven!

Religion IS doublethink... when you're dead, you're NOT dead!

pboyfloyd at 5:30AM on Jan 14th 2008

866. Mark, from 855, says, "Here is my explanation: God, whose existence transcends our 4 dimensional domain (known as the universe) into dimensions beyond that which we can perceive, which are not bound by space and time, created the universe."

Okay, Mark... here's why this is not logical at all.
You say that everything that you know tells you that everything has a cause! Cause and effect, real causes with real effects. Perfectly logical, perfectly reasonable....

... then you introduce God and extra dimensions.

Why? I'll tell you why. Because you WANT to, that is why.

Don't believe me. Well, let's say that you've formulated your conclusion... and it's God... fine...

...it's the God that is the overarching character in the Old Testament...

..why? I'll tell you why. Because you WANT it to be, that's why.

You say that God, as Jesus came down to us to save our souls... why? I'll tell you why. Because you don't want to die, that is why!

I'm sorry buddy, I really am. I have bad news for you. Nobody is getting out of this alive! Not with all the Bible study in the world, not with all the prayer in the world, not with the imaginary, 'must be' extra dimensions that you can think of...

... shit, Mark... even the SUN is going to 'die'... think of that!

pboyfloyd at 6:07AM on Jan 14th 2008

867. It's all very simple Dinesh D'Souza, a theory is the best set of knowledge (knowing as oppose to "believing) that we have until you or someone else comes up with a *better theory*.

Attacking people and theories doesn't produce a better one. If anything, its evidence for the weakness of your own theory - which is merely a giant leap of faith because you either don't have the answers, or cannot apprehend the ones put in front of you by genetic science, geology, microbiology, anthropology and geology. So far, evolution is the best theory, not a book of ancient fairy tales and contradictions.

Pointing to holes in a theory doesn't make you god any more real, only evidence can. You have none, so you spend your time attacking others and then patting yourself on the back for it. Doesn't the bible say things about false pride and gloating?

The bible can be summarized into Abraham Lincoln's simple ethic:
Do good and you should feel good, do bad and you should feel bad. Apparently you don't feel bad about lying and distorting to defend your "faith".

Chris Aable at 6:39AM on Jan 14th 2008

868. All life on this planet is connected. Life on this planet is all connected biochemically. The reason that we can and do eat the products of living things is BECAUSE we are all biochemically connected.

If every species of plant and animal, bacteria and virus were NOT connected, scientists would have NOTICED this a long time ago.--(pboyfloyd)

The reason we eat the products of living things is because we all came from the same place. Dirt. Genesis tells us that man and animals were formed from the dirt of the ground, which He placed here in preparation of us. All the chemicals, vitamins, and nutrients to keep our bodies maintained is in the dirt, also where all plant life springs forth and where animals feed from. The food chain is interesting to note, as it is precise...too precise to have come from a bang in the sky. The sun is also rich in vitamin C. When Moses wrote Genesis, decreed from God, there was no way he couldv'e known about chemicals. nutrients or anything scientific as we know it today. Yet, our bodies have the same ingredients dirt has. I agree that humans are connected. We all came from Adam and Eve. After the flood, we came forth from the sons of Noah; Shem, Jespheth and Ham. As everyone afterward travelled to different lands, (and after having their languages confounded) their bodies changed according to the climates they settled in over a thousand year period. Their bodies adapted to the climates from generation to generation. God is a God of variety and He wanted this to occur. If we were all the same, with the same ideas and culture...there would never be any progress because everyone would be thinking the same.

___________________________________________________

It doesn't make any sense for GOD to make us carnivores. Just as it does not make any sense for GOD to like the smell of burning meat(a la Bible) or for GOD to inspire the ancients to tell us that HE lived in the sky, he was spirit(air) etc. only to need to evolve the notion of GOD to live outside our material existence completely a few thousand years later. Remember, to GOD, a thousand years is like a day. (pboyfloyd)

Why would it not make sense that God would want us to eat meat? Even we humans are a part of the food chain. He created some animals for us to eat and said it was good for us, just as he made some plants for us to eat. When God said he loved the smell of burning meat as sacrifice, it was the obedience of the righteous that did the sacrificial ritual that pleased Him more. How does one worship without some form of obedience? The fact that God lives in heaven and not here on earth is inmaterial. Where would you suppose He reside? In heaven, a thousand years is one day, but on earth one day is one day and a thousand years is a thousand years. He does discern time and seasons.

________________________________________________

To stick with human/animal comparisons, I am not sure how many different 'kinds' of animals that there are supposed to be, but did you know that there are about 1,500 different kinds of Christians in North America today.

Imagine 1,500 people (each from one of these different churches) coming together in a cathedral or somewhere and each one willing to say, "Yes, I am Christian, but I have at least one fundamental difference between me and everyone else in this place, but I, and only I, know the real truth!"
(pboyfloyd)

I agree with you there. It is confusing. But in Revelations, there are 7 churches that Jesus speaks to concerning their works and ways. He basically chastises them and judges them, so just because a church or denomination worships a certain way, they will be judged accordingly. The reference to THE BODY OF CHRIST means everyone, individually, who has truly lived and worshipped rightly in God's eyes and the teachings of Jesus, will be called up first before the 7 year tribulation period, but they do not go to heaven. They will go to a place until the 7 year period is over. Then come back when Jesus does, where He will rule for a thousand years. satan will be put into a bottomless pit until the thousand years is over. Sorry, I got off track and got carried away.

____________________________________________________

If you can imagine this, AND you can imagine that all Christians know the absolute truth... that is called compartmentalized thinking.

Isn't that right, DENA? Would you give me that one?

How about you, Mark, would you at least acknowledge that fact?

pboyfloyd at 3:35AM on Jan 14th 2008

Thing is, no one knows everything. People worship their own way but if that way is pleasing to Him then it is good. He is not into organized religion or churches. He deals with people individually. If a church or denomination goes throught he same ritual and cold, dry service, He is not pleased because He does things spontaneously. When a church says; "We will let God have His way here" then God has room to pour out His Spirit in that church, as opposed to those who only do what they want to do. So it isn't religion that will get people into heaven, it is the personal relationship one has with God and His son, Jesus.

DENA at 12:42PM on Jan 14th 2008

869. "You say, "It wasn't like a BBQ. It had to due with sacrifice and purification laws."

Exodus 28..

18... It is a burnt offering to the LORD, a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the LORD.
25...the burnt offering for a pleasing aroma to the LORD,
41...a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the LORD."

God didn't eat the food. The food that was cooked was eaten by the levitical priests.

Mark at 1:43PM on Jan 14th 2008

870. "You say, "please quote the scripture"

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit

L. spiritus "soul, courage, vigor, breath,
"related to spirare "to breathe (hence AIR)"

I'm trying to figure out your point, which is why I wanted context...

what is your point? Do you think that writers of the bible believed that literal "air" is spirit?

Mark at 1:47PM on Jan 14th 2008

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