Of all the leading atheists, Michael Shermer may be the most affable. I also like Christopher Hitchens, who is terrific social company. But Hitchens tends to play the bad guy in public. I laughed out loud when I saw Hitchens in his trenchcoat on the cover of one of his books. That image made you want to lock the doors and hide the children. Also Hitchens seems almost pathologically anti-religious. What rational person can assert, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"?
Shermer is the editor of Skeptic, columnist for Scientific American, and author of Why Darwin Matters and most recently The Mind of the Market. By contrast with Hitchens in his trenchcoat, Shermer looks like a guy you could trust to take your kids to the park. Shermer is almost congenitally optimistic, and he has none of that chronic nastiness that has come to define modern atheism. (Witness the temperament of some of the atheists on this blog, who provide excellent advertising for the psychological benefits of belief.) Shermer concedes that Christianity has done some good in the world. When asked if religion is a force for good or evil, he answers, "Yes." By this he means that religion is good when it does good and evil when it does evil. Shermer concedes that atheists can be vicious and draw their inspiration from atheist ideologies.
I first debated Shermer at Oregon State in October 2007. Then we debated in Washington DC at George Washington University. Our third and final debate for the year came December 9 at Cal Tech University in Pasadena. The third debate, moderated by the religion editor of the Los Angeles Times, was certainly our biggest and probably our liveliest encounter. There were more than a thousand people in the audience. I understand that lots of Cal Tech professors, and a couple of Nobel laureates, were present. Given the venue, the crowd was disproportionately scientific and technical.
The topics were "Is Religion a Force for Good in the World?" and "Can We Be Good Without God?" The debate ranged widely, however, and included discussions of the compatibility of science and religion, how science supports or undermines theism, etc. My favorite part of these debates is the cross-examination, when each side gets to pose questions to the other. I'm going to be posting on this debate over the next few days, each post accompanied by video footage. So here is the first segment, with me going first and attempting to set the agenda for the evening. Enjoy.
Mo Rocca has appeared on a bunch of shows, including 'The Daily Show,' 'I Love the 80s,'...
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Debating Michael Shermer at Cal Tech
Posted Jan 16th 2008 1:20AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 42)
31. Brian - Please point out where I denied Jesus existed. Specific quotes, please. (You'll be looking for a while - see, e.g., comment #20 here: http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2007/07/12/universal-morality-and-the-morality-of-the-universe/)
I admit that I don't think there's a God in the Judeo/Xtian/Islamic sense, so "Jesus wasn't God" and "the universe wasn't created by God" kind of follow. (BTW, that's not the same as "sheer luck", though it does appear that chance did play a role - just not an exclusive one.)
I already admitted that atheists, as well as theists, can be 'shrill', but I have never seen D'Souza admit that there are non-shrill atheist comments here, too.
When I am "pressed for reasons" I've come to those conclusions, I point to this: http://ingles.homeunix.net/rants/atheism/
Feel free to point out where I'm 'angry' or 'shrill' there.
Ray Ingles at 11:46AM on Jan 16th 2008
32. "If there were but one single photon, graviton, muon or any particle of matter or energy in all of the universe in all of history, the burden lies with any intelligence to explain where it came from."
Agreed. That's what we have science for. If one is going to assert the existence of something, the burden of proof is on them. Like, for instance, asserting the existence of GOD.
If I told you I owned a brand new Camaro, but when you asked to see it I always had an excuse for why I couldn't show it to you, would you start to think I was lying? Shouldn't I show it to you to make you believe me? Similarly, if you tell me there is a supernatural being, and I say "Show it to me", and all you can come up with is an old book and some anecdotal evidence about a feeling that you've had, I'm not going to believe you.
And Dinesh, I try to be civil on this blog and get my point across with a minimum of rancor. No nastiness necessary. I'm going to make an exception today for your childish remarks. Dinesh D'Souza, you are a damn fool.
AndrewV at 11:47AM on Jan 16th 2008
33. Theists regularly admit the negatives done in it's name, atheists tend to live in a false sense of perfection.
LorMarie at 11:36AM on Jan 16t
It is the christin who claims infallability.
I cannot speak for all atheits, but I see nothing as "perfect", except for the perfection of randomness.
mac at 11:51AM on Jan 16th 2008
34. Ok, let me define Supreme Being:
1) a preexistent intelligence with intention, that is a knowledge and will that preceded the Big Bang (based on bacground mirowave radiation, a nearly incontravertible theory)
2) a sentience not bound by the Three Laws of Thermodynamics, information not tied to or imprinted on any physical medium or energy matrix.
3) a praeterhuman intelligence capable or understanding, emotion (Love) and creativity, that by definition surpasses the sum of human endeavors.
garnetmcriff at 11:55AM on Jan 16th 2008
35. My he just keeps on ticking and telling the atheists of this world that you are as responsible, for the actions as you keep insisting that the Christian believers are. That is so much the truth. Just reading your blogs sounds like all are having to regroup and sounding more ugly than usual are having to actually deal with a man who knows what he is talking about. If we as Christians have committed so many factions due to our beliefs, then you as Atheists have to agree that you have had also a big hand in the killing and hurting of your fellow man. What an awakening that you once have to show some responsibility in this world. For once, he is saying that you have to realize that you are a player in the great scheme of human behavior regardless of how much you want to sit in your comfortable chairs and state how much Christians are to blame for everything that has taken place in this world. So no longer can you sit and try to make Christian or even non-Christians believe that the Christian have done all of the horrible deeds that you have tried to pass on to us. Way to GO Dinesh!!!!!! Rita
Rtia at 11:53AM on Jan 16th 2008
36. #24
"the holy roller might as well be jim jones or david koresh. hello huckaby, goodbye america."
Cliff how is that you can make such a statement when you, yourself, along with others have made such a good job of maintaining the separation between church and state. I am in favor of this separation and there are enough individuals that agree. So is the use of this idea that church will in the end replace rule the state? Or could this be merely a scare tactic or rallying cry to support some other agenda? Or could it be like in the 50's on the right where the was a "commie" hiding beneath every bed, today on the left ,there is now a believer in a supreme being under every bed. Or is it a case of over-active imagination ?
M2D5 at 11:59AM on Jan 16th 2008
37. "Theists regularly admit the negatives done in it's name, atheists tend to live in a false sense of perfection." LorMarie
-----------------------------------------------
Ha ha ha ha. LOL. She must not read this blog very often. We have the biggest bunch of no true scotsmen I've ever encountered on this blog.
Linda at 11:58AM on Jan 16th 2008
38. Rtia (?)
Do you read Mr.D'Souza's posts?
Have ou seen any of his debates?
mac at 12:00PM on Jan 16th 2008
39. Garnett,
No by all means let me define "Supreme Being" his name is GOD the Father, GOD the SON and HOLY SPIRIT. Nothing to lenghty there. It's called the Trinity, three in one. They are the Supreme Beings, always have been always will be. Can't run any longer from the truth, cause the truth will finally set you free. Rita
Rtia at 12:01PM on Jan 16th 2008
40. To Emma and Grigori,
Dinesh may not mention Buddhism but Christopher Hitchens (an atheist) talks about it in his book God is not Great. If you read it, you will learn that Buddhism is not so peaceful after all.
LorMarie at 12:02PM on Jan 16th 2008
41. mac,
yes I have, it is time for you to understand what the man is saying. It is time for the atheists on this blog to understand what he is saying. I have from day one tried to express that Christian love has nothing to do with Hitler, Stalin, Jimmie Jones, or any other religion that tries to pass itslef off as Christian. I know what is expected of me as a Christian and I know that GOD rules my life and has send the Holy Spirit into my heart to be my guide through this life time into the next. The way is narrow and the road is tough but, I have someone who is walking it right beside me. That's why I will never walk away from the one who has saved me and died for me. Sorry your barking up the wrong alley if you expect anything less. Rita
Rtia at 12:07PM on Jan 16th 2008
42. We cannot show you God, because God requires faith.
Imagine if you were an omnipotent and omniscient being with power beyond the comprehension of the denizens of a particular planet. You knew that you could simply poke your head throught the clouds and say "HEY Knuckleheads, here I am. I'm real after all, now get down on your knees and worship!!!"
Now because you are omniscient, you know that about 50% of the inhabitants of said planet would immediately die from fright and most of the rest would react to your apocalypse with rage and fear.
Of course, some would be saying, "I told you so..."
and try to lord it over the rest, but being a compassionate Supreme Being, you wouldn't want that either....
....you imagine the rest....
garnetmcriff at 12:08PM on Jan 16th 2008
43. Rtia,
"it is time for you to understand what the man is saying"
Are you SURE you LISTENED to the presentation? He's NOT talking about JC and the Trinity, but the role of Christianity and religion in the world, and how modern morality is derivative of Christian values. Seriously, do you ONLY hear what you WANT to hear, or actually read into what people are SAYING?
Mokele-Mbembe at 12:14PM on Jan 16th 2008
44. Rtia,
If I were to find a religion, Please, help me unerstand why it should be yours?
I searched and searched, but could not find a reason to join a belief, none.
mac at 12:15PM on Jan 16th 2008
45. Ok. I am a former atheist and presently a Roman Catholic. Absoulutely (sic) irrelevant! The only thing any created being needs are two bits of knowledge and one action:
1) There is a God
2) You are not Him.
3) Pray.
garnetmcriff at 12:21PM on Jan 16th 2008