Of all the leading atheists, Michael Shermer may be the most affable. I also like Christopher Hitchens, who is terrific social company. But Hitchens tends to play the bad guy in public. I laughed out loud when I saw Hitchens in his trenchcoat on the cover of one of his books. That image made you want to lock the doors and hide the children. Also Hitchens seems almost pathologically anti-religious. What rational person can assert, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"?
Shermer is the editor of Skeptic, columnist for Scientific American, and author of Why Darwin Matters and most recently The Mind of the Market. By contrast with Hitchens in his trenchcoat, Shermer looks like a guy you could trust to take your kids to the park. Shermer is almost congenitally optimistic, and he has none of that chronic nastiness that has come to define modern atheism. (Witness the temperament of some of the atheists on this blog, who provide excellent advertising for the psychological benefits of belief.) Shermer concedes that Christianity has done some good in the world. When asked if religion is a force for good or evil, he answers, "Yes." By this he means that religion is good when it does good and evil when it does evil. Shermer concedes that atheists can be vicious and draw their inspiration from atheist ideologies.
I first debated Shermer at Oregon State in October 2007. Then we debated in Washington DC at George Washington University. Our third and final debate for the year came December 9 at Cal Tech University in Pasadena. The third debate, moderated by the religion editor of the Los Angeles Times, was certainly our biggest and probably our liveliest encounter. There were more than a thousand people in the audience. I understand that lots of Cal Tech professors, and a couple of Nobel laureates, were present. Given the venue, the crowd was disproportionately scientific and technical.
The topics were "Is Religion a Force for Good in the World?" and "Can We Be Good Without God?" The debate ranged widely, however, and included discussions of the compatibility of science and religion, how science supports or undermines theism, etc. My favorite part of these debates is the cross-examination, when each side gets to pose questions to the other. I'm going to be posting on this debate over the next few days, each post accompanied by video footage. So here is the first segment, with me going first and attempting to set the agenda for the evening. Enjoy.
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Debating Michael Shermer at Cal Tech
Posted Jan 16th 2008 1:20AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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What's So Great About Christianity
Dinesh D'Souza's acclaimed New York Times bestseller, What's So Great About Christianity, is in stores. Order now!
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Reader Comments ( Page 3 of 42)
31. Funky (?) intro music on this vid.
Every day i patrol this blog to defend the dignity of atheists (may MSWord auto-capitalization one day recognise it), although I am not in truth an atheist myself.
I believe in a universal force or will that we can all call "God", or by some other name if the very word "God" makes you contend. I believe that religions present grotesque misrepresentations of this, how to put it, entity. I believe that science is how we can divine what is or isn't true of "God", rather than faith in stories of questionable origin. Science will provide answers within our circumstantial epistemological boundaries.
There are a few points that Dinesh makes that I can't fight him on. 1: That the social virtues of modern atheists are derived from Christian values. I believe to a fair degree modern atheists inherited these through the circumstance of living in the umbrage of Christian culture. I also however believe, contrary to Dinesh, that many of these virtues can follow logically if we pursue goals beyond the Darwinist legacy of our evolutionary ancestors, that we choose to participate ourselves into structured societies beyond clan survivalism. 2: Science is predicated on faith in a universal order to the universe, where it is possible that truths may actually be inconceivable to our "rational" minds. The Biblical stories as not just morality tales, literalisms flies past the limits of inconceivability I can allow my precious mind to incur. I will never find cause to invest my faith in this suchness. This kind of unsubstantiated faith holds potential to justify anything, I mean ANYTHING.
Ha, in a new SomethingAwful article they call atheism the new Aspergers, and the most passive-aggressive jihad ever! Funny site rife with criticism of popular culture and counterculture alike, so they're hard to take seriously (I doubt they ever intend to be taken seriously).
Mokele-Mbembe at 11:48AM on Jan 16th 2008
32. Theists regularly admit the negatives done in it's name, atheists tend to live in a false sense of perfection.
LorMarie at 11:36AM on Jan 16t
It is the christin who claims infallability.
I cannot speak for all atheits, but I see nothing as "perfect", except for the perfection of randomness.
mac at 11:51AM on Jan 16th 2008
33. emma, Geoff, JerryC,
It could not be put better, you have, collectively, hit the nail on the head.
Clif,
We can only hope god does not take our second ammendment. I do not want to live in that dominionist state. We must all fight for our rights.
mac at 11:51AM on Jan 16th 2008
34. My he just keeps on ticking and telling the atheists of this world that you are as responsible, for the actions as you keep insisting that the Christian believers are. That is so much the truth. Just reading your blogs sounds like all are having to regroup and sounding more ugly than usual are having to actually deal with a man who knows what he is talking about. If we as Christians have committed so many factions due to our beliefs, then you as Atheists have to agree that you have had also a big hand in the killing and hurting of your fellow man. What an awakening that you once have to show some responsibility in this world. For once, he is saying that you have to realize that you are a player in the great scheme of human behavior regardless of how much you want to sit in your comfortable chairs and state how much Christians are to blame for everything that has taken place in this world. So no longer can you sit and try to make Christian or even non-Christians believe that the Christian have done all of the horrible deeds that you have tried to pass on to us. Way to GO Dinesh!!!!!! Rita
Rtia at 11:53AM on Jan 16th 2008
35. Ok, let me define Supreme Being:
1) a preexistent intelligence with intention, that is a knowledge and will that preceded the Big Bang (based on bacground mirowave radiation, a nearly incontravertible theory)
2) a sentience not bound by the Three Laws of Thermodynamics, information not tied to or imprinted on any physical medium or energy matrix.
3) a praeterhuman intelligence capable or understanding, emotion (Love) and creativity, that by definition surpasses the sum of human endeavors.
garnetmcriff at 11:55AM on Jan 16th 2008
36. "Theists regularly admit the negatives done in it's name, atheists tend to live in a false sense of perfection." LorMarie
-----------------------------------------------
Ha ha ha ha. LOL. She must not read this blog very often. We have the biggest bunch of no true scotsmen I've ever encountered on this blog.
Linda at 11:58AM on Jan 16th 2008
37. #24
"the holy roller might as well be jim jones or david koresh. hello huckaby, goodbye america."
Cliff how is that you can make such a statement when you, yourself, along with others have made such a good job of maintaining the separation between church and state. I am in favor of this separation and there are enough individuals that agree. So is the use of this idea that church will in the end replace rule the state? Or could this be merely a scare tactic or rallying cry to support some other agenda? Or could it be like in the 50's on the right where the was a "commie" hiding beneath every bed, today on the left ,there is now a believer in a supreme being under every bed. Or is it a case of over-active imagination ?
M2D5 at 11:59AM on Jan 16th 2008
38. Rtia (?)
Do you read Mr.D'Souza's posts?
Have ou seen any of his debates?
mac at 12:00PM on Jan 16th 2008
39. Garnett,
No by all means let me define "Supreme Being" his name is GOD the Father, GOD the SON and HOLY SPIRIT. Nothing to lenghty there. It's called the Trinity, three in one. They are the Supreme Beings, always have been always will be. Can't run any longer from the truth, cause the truth will finally set you free. Rita
Rtia at 12:01PM on Jan 16th 2008
40. To Emma and Grigori,
Dinesh may not mention Buddhism but Christopher Hitchens (an atheist) talks about it in his book God is not Great. If you read it, you will learn that Buddhism is not so peaceful after all.
LorMarie at 12:02PM on Jan 16th 2008
41. mac,
yes I have, it is time for you to understand what the man is saying. It is time for the atheists on this blog to understand what he is saying. I have from day one tried to express that Christian love has nothing to do with Hitler, Stalin, Jimmie Jones, or any other religion that tries to pass itslef off as Christian. I know what is expected of me as a Christian and I know that GOD rules my life and has send the Holy Spirit into my heart to be my guide through this life time into the next. The way is narrow and the road is tough but, I have someone who is walking it right beside me. That's why I will never walk away from the one who has saved me and died for me. Sorry your barking up the wrong alley if you expect anything less. Rita
Rtia at 12:07PM on Jan 16th 2008
42. We cannot show you God, because God requires faith.
Imagine if you were an omnipotent and omniscient being with power beyond the comprehension of the denizens of a particular planet. You knew that you could simply poke your head throught the clouds and say "HEY Knuckleheads, here I am. I'm real after all, now get down on your knees and worship!!!"
Now because you are omniscient, you know that about 50% of the inhabitants of said planet would immediately die from fright and most of the rest would react to your apocalypse with rage and fear.
Of course, some would be saying, "I told you so..."
and try to lord it over the rest, but being a compassionate Supreme Being, you wouldn't want that either....
....you imagine the rest....
garnetmcriff at 12:08PM on Jan 16th 2008
43. Rtia,
"it is time for you to understand what the man is saying"
Are you SURE you LISTENED to the presentation? He's NOT talking about JC and the Trinity, but the role of Christianity and religion in the world, and how modern morality is derivative of Christian values. Seriously, do you ONLY hear what you WANT to hear, or actually read into what people are SAYING?
Mokele-Mbembe at 12:14PM on Jan 16th 2008
44. Rtia,
If I were to find a religion, Please, help me unerstand why it should be yours?
I searched and searched, but could not find a reason to join a belief, none.
mac at 12:15PM on Jan 16th 2008
45. Ok. I am a former atheist and presently a Roman Catholic. Absoulutely (sic) irrelevant! The only thing any created being needs are two bits of knowledge and one action:
1) There is a God
2) You are not Him.
3) Pray.
garnetmcriff at 12:21PM on Jan 16th 2008