Of all the leading atheists, Michael Shermer may be the most affable. I also like Christopher Hitchens, who is terrific social company. But Hitchens tends to play the bad guy in public. I laughed out loud when I saw Hitchens in his trenchcoat on the cover of one of his books. That image made you want to lock the doors and hide the children. Also Hitchens seems almost pathologically anti-religious. What rational person can assert, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"?
Shermer is the editor of Skeptic, columnist for Scientific American, and author of Why Darwin Matters and most recently The Mind of the Market. By contrast with Hitchens in his trenchcoat, Shermer looks like a guy you could trust to take your kids to the park. Shermer is almost congenitally optimistic, and he has none of that chronic nastiness that has come to define modern atheism. (Witness the temperament of some of the atheists on this blog, who provide excellent advertising for the psychological benefits of belief.) Shermer concedes that Christianity has done some good in the world. When asked if religion is a force for good or evil, he answers, "Yes." By this he means that religion is good when it does good and evil when it does evil. Shermer concedes that atheists can be vicious and draw their inspiration from atheist ideologies.
I first debated Shermer at Oregon State in October 2007. Then we debated in Washington DC at George Washington University. Our third and final debate for the year came December 9 at Cal Tech University in Pasadena. The third debate, moderated by the religion editor of the Los Angeles Times, was certainly our biggest and probably our liveliest encounter. There were more than a thousand people in the audience. I understand that lots of Cal Tech professors, and a couple of Nobel laureates, were present. Given the venue, the crowd was disproportionately scientific and technical.
The topics were "Is Religion a Force for Good in the World?" and "Can We Be Good Without God?" The debate ranged widely, however, and included discussions of the compatibility of science and religion, how science supports or undermines theism, etc. My favorite part of these debates is the cross-examination, when each side gets to pose questions to the other. I'm going to be posting on this debate over the next few days, each post accompanied by video footage. So here is the first segment, with me going first and attempting to set the agenda for the evening. Enjoy.
Mo Rocca has appeared on a bunch of shows, including 'The Daily Show,' 'I Love the 80s,'...
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Debating Michael Shermer at Cal Tech
Posted Jan 16th 2008 1:20AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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Reader Comments ( Page 4 of 42)
46. ray,
you are not angry and shrill with what you said. truthfully not all atheist get so irate. you have to admit some do. we are all human and subject to outburst. you may not have said that jesus didn't exist. but the belief of christians and supported by the bible, is that jesus was the son of god. i contend either he was that or he need not have existed because then we are all still lost in our sins. jesus has to be who he himself said he was. now,since you are looking in one direction, namely head knowledge,you will never see him because he himself said that those who seek me with their whole heart will find me.this is not to say the claims of christianity cannot bear up under the scrutiny of intellectualism but nothing holds up under the scrutiny of doubt. christianity changes lives from the inside out. there has to be an inward change,thats what jesus refrerred to as being born again. this allows you to see a dimension that is hidden from your eyes being blinded by un-belief. simple i think. thanks for not being angry and saying mean, hateful, diabolical things about peaceful christians
brian at 12:22PM on Jan 16th 2008
47. We cannot show you God, because God requires faith.
Imagine if you were an omnipotent and omniscient being with power beyond the comprehension of the denizens of a particular planet. You knew that you could simply poke your head throught the clouds and say "HEY Knuckleheads, here I am. I'm real after all, now get down on your knees and worship!!!"
If we are made in his(her,it's) image, why would we not be able?
You think this is perfection?
Seems flawed to me, and anyone not wearing blinders, I would imagine. Opiate of the masses indeed
mac at 12:25PM on Jan 16th 2008
48. Or is it a case of over-active imagination ?
M2D5 at 11:59AM on Jan 16th 2008
xxx
Belief in creationism is belief in an imaginary universe. I see overactive denial and need for control as the major motivating force behind it, though.
I am here because of my belief in separation of church and state as is settled law in this country for 60 years. I find anti american movements like the wedge doctrine to be as odious as pol pot or for about the same reasons, aleister crowley or the process church of final judgment. As I said, it's minor quibbling over doctrine.
When huckaby believes the same things as jones and koresh and sun myung moon and scientologists and pat robertson and is only a little apart from fred and leon phelps I don't want that rapture fried green tomato anywhere near government.
Clif Kuplen at 12:28PM on Jan 16th 2008
49. nothing holds up under the scrutiny of doubt.
brian
xxxx
The truth does.
mac at 12:28PM on Jan 16th 2008
50. There you go again, thrusting assumptions my way.
I do believe religion is the opiate of the masses.
Acutally the endorphins (enkaphalens) of the soul.
"He created us for His (our) PLEASURE"
Get real, my friend, you're like a boy whistling in the dark to get up his courage.
garnetmcriff at 12:29PM on Jan 16th 2008
51. mac,
Hey "nuckleheads" look at me I came here to this earth to save you from your sins because since I created you, you cannot live under the law, so I will die for you, then maybe since the father who through Satan out of heaven to roam with free will (just as he has done for all of us) will be able to understand that I love you and I want to commune with you and I want to give you eternal life. I want to give you a life of love, understanding the hurts of others, and to love the sinner although you can not go along with the sin. How hard is that for you people to understand? You keep on bringing all of these scientist into your blogs when even a child can understand the love of GOD, you can't because that would have to bring out believing with your hearts and not your heads.
Rita
Rtia at 12:34PM on Jan 16th 2008
52. Mokele-Mbembe - it may be true that there are things that are simply 'unknowable' by humans... but that fact has no practical significance. I wrote an essay about that here:
http://ingles.homeunix.net/rants/atheism/unknowable.html
Ray Ingles at 12:35PM on Jan 16th 2008
53. "If I were to find a religion, Please, help me unerstand why it should be yours?
I searched and searched, but could not find a reason to join a belief, none." Mac
Mac,
Don't join a religion. Why join something that is man made? Why join something to benefit the power and contribute to the profits "They" make?
This is where it get's tricky. Make it personal Mac. Find out the true meaning before Man screwed it up to benefit man.
I'm in the process of studying the Qur'an (Koran).
Absolutely fascinating. It is so difficult to learn it. The similarities between it and the Bible are there.
I've had a few weeks at home before I go away for a little while and I've been trying to catch up on what I was learning before.
The point is that Religion is in fact man made. Learning these scriptures and understanding the meaning of these stories is personal.
I'm a Christian. However, I'm a Christian that studies other Teachings. I do this because I feel there is a connection to all of this.
We got seperated. There is no Christian God, Muslim God and so on. There is only God, if in fact God is the name. But whatever God is, He can only be proven by each one of us. Does he conform to our Realities?
And if you don't think so, so be it. It doesn't matter. All we have here is each other. I didn't try to Know Him because I was lonely or feared death. That's wrong. I tried to Know Him, because I had a strong feeling that there is something out there. It's unexplainable. But traveling and seeing so many different things is an awakening experience. You get this feeling, that there is a presence around you. You're just going along for the ride.
And I agree with you, that the yellow stain on your shirt was in fact Mustard.
Botts at 12:38PM on Jan 16th 2008
54. mac,
Forget about religion and realize that there is a GOD who defies all you understand about religion. Horrible things have been done in the name of religion but, Christianity can set you free. Free to follow the life that you were meant to have. Free knowing that the price has already been paid for you to inherit eternal life. Christ said "pick up your cross and follow after me." That means live day by day as Jesus would have done and your going to screw up and your going to make mistakes but, that the beauty of this relationship with JESUS he loves you, he died for you, and he wants to give you eternal life. Who in their right mind would not want to live with their loved ones forever? Rita
Rtia at 12:43PM on Jan 16th 2008
55. Ray Ingles,
The practical significance is that we have to deal with all these people who claim to KNOW the UNKNOWABLE.
Mokele-Mbembe at 12:44PM on Jan 16th 2008
56. I am pretty sure that I am not a member of any organization that had anything to do with Pol Pot, Stalin or Nazi germany.
a born atheist at 12:46PM on Jan 16th 2008
57. mokele,
Yes sir I understand what Dinesh was saying all along. However, there have been several people on this blog that have pointed directly at the Christian for all of the horrible deeds that have been done down thru the centuries. I am simply pointing out no truth to any of these statements.
Rita
Rtia at 12:49PM on Jan 16th 2008
58. There you go again, thrusting assumptions my way.
I do believe religion is the opiate of the masses.
Acutally the endorphins (enkaphalens) of the soul.
"He created us for His (our) PLEASURE"
Get real, my friend, you're like a boy whistling in the dark to get up his courage.
garnetmcriff at 12:29PM on Jan 16th 2008
xxxx
Sir, you and have never conversed, have we? How am I "thrusting assumptions" your way again?
I don't believe, as you, that it is good to "medicate" our minds with "opiates". If yu are clear headed, Why fog it?
I'm done whistling now come on in, sit down, detox your mind, open your eyes, you'll see t's not really that dark.
3 things
1. Jesus died 2000 years ago
2. Noone has seen him since.
3. You are an asshole!
mac at 12:48PM on Jan 16th 2008
59. Rtia
Is that your reason?
mac at 12:50PM on Jan 16th 2008
60. Brian - thanks for acknowledging that not all atheists are overly aggressive. You can imagine how I might get that impression when your original comment stated that "you can,with 100% accuracy,state that indeed the atheist do get nasty and mean spirited."
I try to be civil in all my discussions - it's way too easy to be misinterpreted on the net when you can't rely on tone of voice and body language. I do get irritated by some things - Dinesh's repeated mischaracterizations of his opponents and discussions being an example - but it's possible even to express irritation politely. More effective, too.
Ray Ingles at 12:53PM on Jan 16th 2008