601. bump

fabio at 1:37PM on Jan 19th 2008

602. Well, Stig....

You ask, "Why?????" to this..."This was not a 'test' for the reality of the evilness of atheism.... you know this.'"

Well, if you don't know that Hitler's,Stalin's and Mao's regimes were not tests conducted by scientists, then you are an idiot!

You say, "On the contrary, the subject is wishful thinking."

No, it wasn't. The subject was reality.(You don't get to choose what the subject of my comment was, you idiot.)

You say, "Maybe you should re-enroll in Atheist Seminary?"

Where do you imagine that would be? There is no mention of an "Atheist Seminary" anywhere on the internet.

You say, "Do you mean don't ask questions?", in response to, ""Now, Stig.. shut up about this......."

Of course I meant that if you pick at this notion that totalitarian despotic regimes are all atheistic and intrinsically evil then you would necessarilly need to ask yourself if there ARE any absolute morals which 'non-atheistic' regimes would necessarilly need to obey.

I was of the opinion that I had explained that quite clearly... so clearly, in fact that only an idiot or someone being deliberately ignorant would not notice!

Are you an idiot, or are you being deliberately ignorant, Stig?

I said, "..if you think that being gay is bad......"

To which you replied, " It's not rational to assume."

Well, Stig, let me be the first to let you in on a little secret... it IS rational to make assumptions.

I think that it is important that you understand this...(say it to yourself, until you believe it)
"It is rational to make reasonable assumptions."
"It is rational to make reasonable assumptions."
"It is rational to make reasonable assumptions."
"It IS rational to make reasonable assumptions."

Of course, I HAD assumed(reasonably, I thought) that you weren't just a willfully ignorant idiot!

You then said, "Why would you assume that I think being gay is bad when I've said nothing of the sort?"

I have to assume that most people understand that the word 'if' is significant... For example, Stig, if you are a complete, total, flaming queen, or some kind of closet Christian "non-homo" butt-holer... you might object strongly to me bringing up the subject of homosexuality at all...

... and if you had wings like an angel(of popular imagination) you probably wouldn't be able to fly!

You say, "Again, please quote where I "have said" that National Socialism was Atheism?"

But, then again, you're not saying that you don't, is that it, Stig? (Once again, I assumed that you were in complete agreement with D'Souza... I think that this is a trivial point, unless you are agreeing with me that totalitarian despotism never was necessarilly atheistic?... Naw, that can't be, can it?)

You say, "At this point, I'm trying really hard not to think of you as a completely irrational fanatic.."

Now, I've said this before to you Stig, you are a LIAR! I think that I can reasonably assume(from previous comments) that you believe atheism to be an irrational P.O.V. and that atheists are 'fanatic' ... so what's this, "At this point..", nonsense?!?

I'm going to skip down past your phoney indignation to this...

"You insist that I cease my skeptical inquiries.."

WHAT? LOL... what 'inquiries'?
Try to pay attention to what you are typing when you are commenting, Stig... they're YOUR comments, after all... and they are hardly 'inquiries'!

Finally, you say this, "How can we NOT deduce that Atheism positively pre-disposes one to an adherence to totalitarian leanings?"

I, for one, have never been to this imaginary "Atheism Seminary" ...

... never mind that even...

... what's your premises for this 'deduction'?

not-pboyfloyd at 5:24PM on Jan 19th 2008

603.
602

"...chronic nastiness that has come to define modern atheism.."

Thank you for proving Dinesh's point. I've been far from enlightened by some of the "free-thinking" rationality displayed by Atheists like yourself.

"There is no mention of an "Atheist Seminary" anywhere on the internet. "

Apparently Atheist Online Distance Learning Boot Camp would be more likely. Or is it the Wikipedia Atheist Military University?

I was correct in my assessment of you. You veil a lack of comprehension with a poorly applied veneer of pseudo-intelligence and pompously (against the evidence), self-proclaim your "rationality" and "reason".

Thank you for once again clarifying the totalitarian character of your dis-belief. You attempt to crush criticism, and derail inquiry with name-calling and derogatory labelling.

I'm inclined to believe that your intellect has obviously not evolved past the Homo Habilis stage. Given your limited intellectual capacity, please do not take my use of the term "homo" to constitute evidence of homophobia.

Stig at 3:55AM on Jan 20th 2008

604. "I was correct in my assessment of you." says you, Stig.

You're "breakin' my heart", jackass.

not-pboyfloyd at 4:19AM on Jan 20th 2008

605. Stig, The only repressively genocidal 20th century dictatorship was Hitlers Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany had a specific policy of targeting Jews and Gypsys for slave labor and death. A government policy of complete eradication of 2 specific and defined groups of people (ehnic specific groups). If Hitlers Germany had won the war, the slavs were to be the Helots in this new German order. Hitler was not an atheist.

The Soviet Union, Communist China, Communist Cambodia did not target etnic or racial groups for death. The peoples targeted were of social (economic) significance. Th idea was to change man into a new social order of the marxist economy. And the leaders of the communist countries were athiests.

Stig, you want to equate atheists with the communists and nazis. Being an atheist does not mean you are either or both. I am an American, that has lost relatives to both regimes, Jews and Poles to the Nazi regime in Germany, Poles and Ukrainians to the Soviet Union. The family names of my relatives in europe no longer exist (Jews, Poles, Ukrainians).

Stig, obviously you believe atheism is odious, but I believe the odiousness has nothing to do with the crimes committed by the communists. It has more to do with your religious beliefs.

JefFlyingV at 5:19AM on Jan 20th 2008

606. When atheists are confronted with evidence of communists atrocities,they deny that communists are atheists.

THEN WHY WAS ATHEISIM PROMOTED IN SCHOOLS IN COMMUNIST COUNTRIES?

My atheist friends admit the truth of history.Atheists have been responsible for some historical atrocities.NOT FOR ALL OF THEM!

And personally,as a believer,i do not believe in tarring atheists with the bloodied brush of stalin and mao.

aniekan thomas at 10:00AM on Jan 20th 2008

607. Aniekan T, I don't think I've denied that at all.

JefFlyingV at 11:01AM on Jan 20th 2008

608.


605

"Hitler was not an atheist."

I know.

"Stig, you want to equate atheists with the communists and nazis."

No. I equate Atheists with everyone else - flawed human beings with an equal capacity to create totalitarian injustice.

"Stig, obviously you believe atheism is odious....."

No. I believe that pompous arrogance is odious. Sweeping condemnations of religions and their adherents is but one example of this. Off-handed denials of oppression committed in the name of
Atheism is another. A simple Google search on Stalin's Purges will pull up ample literature on oppression committed in the name of
Atheism.

The issue of Atheism as an influencing, and sometimes a motivating factor in the oppressive actions of totalitarian regimes must become
part of the dialogue. If religion is to acknowledge it's sometimes brutal past (which it must) then so must Atheism.


Following are excerpts from a petition from the Lithuanian Church in 1984, complaining about oppression committed IN THE NAME OF
ATHEISM......

"The atheists in Lithuania quite mistakenly and unjustly conduct propaganda against religion, the Church and the faithful, and force believers to accept atheism."

"Newspapers, magazines, and pamphlets, often libelously attack religion, the Church and priests..."

"In school, the atheists often force the children of the faithful, against the wishes of their parents, to join atheistic organizations,
forbid them to go to church, and punish those who refuse to join. All children who are religious believers are obliged to attend atheistic
meetings."

"Schoolteachers force pupils who are religious believers to join atheistic organizations. Often they sign up the entire class by
force; anyone objecting is permanently punished and persecuted; all are forbidden to go to church."

"According to Leninist principle, the phrase "the Church is separated from the school" means that religion may not be taught. But in our
country, the atheists FORBID THE TEACHING OF RELIGION TO CHILDREN, EVEN IN CHURCH"

"The results of atheistic oppression clearly manifested themselves in the arrest of Fathers Alfonsas Svarinskas and Sigitas Tamkevičius,
who tried to defend the rights of believers. "

Here's the link.....

http://www.lituanus.org/1984_4/84_4_09.htm

Stig at 1:25PM on Jan 20th 2008

609. Stig, terrible.

JefFlyingV at 1:49PM on Jan 20th 2008

610. Stig, is this now occuring in Lithuania? It was nice that your html page goes to an article of 4/84. Your complaint is well founded, but my previous statements are not unfounded, and your pomposity seems more arrogant than most people that post. Just as I am flawed so are you, and history has shown any country that is created as a theocracy is no better than the communist dictatorships. I can lament with you the loss of human life in the communist countries, but will you lament with me the loss of peoples lives to the name of christianity and religion?

JefFlyingV at 2:04PM on Jan 20th 2008

611. Communism on the Web:

An economic system in which capital is owned by private government. Contrasts with capitalism.

Stalinism on the Web:

dictatorship: a form of government in which the ruler is an absolute dictator (not restricted by a constitution or laws or opposition etc.)

atheism on the Web:

the doctrine or belief that there is no God
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

So, you see, Stig... I can be an atheist and NOT a communist or a Stalinist!

You say(not literally) that inquiring minds just wanna know...

... well, Stig a simple web dictionary 'look-up' and now you know, right?

Now, I suppose that you COULD point to the 'doctrine' version of atheism... but surely if there were two different words for these two different definitions... the 'new' atheists, as DD calls them would only define themselves as the latter and simply because theists want to paint atheists as having a doctrine doesn't make it so.

Doesn't that make complete 'non-chronic-nastiness' sense to you?

I don't think that you WANT that to make sense at all now, do you?

not-pboyfloyd at 4:13PM on Jan 20th 2008

612. Stig, I was looking forward to your response.

JefFlyingV at 7:29AM on Jan 21st 2008

613. I think it's laughable that Christians try to equate the dictatorships of communism and fascism with 'atheism'. Atheism isn't even a belief or a belief system! Those of us labelled as atheists are much to diverse to paint with any one brush. It's a intellectually lazy pigeonholing of those of us who don't believe as Theists do.

Now back to the dictatorships. Isn't it interesting that these dictators employed precisely that same fear and ignorance exploitation tactics that theistic religions do? In fact, that is where they got their ideas from in the first place. They saw how well these tactics worked on the sheepish populations and decided to replace 'God' with 'The State' Since they would be the stewards of 'The State', they would reap the rewards of their new social structure. So you can thank the success of religion and the tactics it employs for the totalitarian dictatorships of our recent past.

fabio at 11:45AM on Jan 21st 2008

614.

610

"Stig, terrible."

"I can lament with you the loss of human life in the communist countries, but will you lament with me the loss of peoples lives to the name of christianity and religion?"

Of course the oppression and loss of life for having a different perspective must be lamented. It is as you say "terrible!".

Unfortunately, lamentation doesn't lead to enlightenment, nor does it show that we have learned the lessons of history, especially when it doesn't fit our world view.

Atheists as much as anyone are gulity of wishing history's lessons away when it shows a connection between Atheism and inhumanity.

Your own claim that Atheist regime's mass murders wasn't occasionally directed at specific races is completely unfounded. Just ask the Tibetans, or the Uighurs, or the Cambodian Hill Tribes,or the Crimean Tatars, the list goes on.

How is it "more" enlightened to teach that ALL religion is bad and at the same time claim that Atheism has never been (and that it would be impossible for it to be) the source of inhumane acts? Especially when the historical record shows the opposite is true.

Atheism CAN have a negative effect on an individuals actions and their ability to act inhumanely. That's not to say that ALL Atheists are or will be bad people, I don't believe that.


"By strongly emphasizing facts of a negative nature, we open ourselves up to our enemies, providing them an enormous amount of material, which they in turn very aptly use against us....."

"It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground..."

'The "tendency" toward a religious disposition is very noticeable--a natural result of developing individualism."

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/f2gorky.html

Another example of oppression committed in THE NAME OF ATHEISM. Following this letter, thousands of Priests and were rounded up and killed or exiled to Gulags. Individuals who refused to give up their right to worship were also killed or exiled. The fear? That religious inquiry leads to individualism. Food for thought for the reasonable?

What's also remarkable about this document's contents is it's frightening resemblance to the rantings of Dennett, Dawkins et al regarding the removal and ridicule of all religious teaching from schools.

Stig at 3:13AM on Jan 22nd 2008

615.

613

"Isn't it interesting that these dictators employed precisely that same fear and ignorance exploitation tactics that theistic religions do?"

This proves that dis-belief is rationally and morally superior to belief.

"They saw how well these tactics worked on the sheepish populations and decided to replace 'God' with 'The State' Since they would be the stewards of 'The State'......"

Much of the resistance to Stalin came from those in the Church. This is especially true in Poland and the Baltic states.

The leaders, organizers, and main perpetrators of Atheist totalitarian atrocities were mainly intelligent and highly educated men and NOT the ignorant masses. They did what they did because they wnated to, not because they were brainwashed. This is true for Mao's China, Stalin's Russia and Pol Pot's Cambodia.

Their dis-belief enabled them to see the logic in mass murder. At least they could see no reason why it was immoral.

Stig at 4:08AM on Jan 22nd 2008