Of all the leading atheists, Michael Shermer may be the most affable. I also like Christopher Hitchens, who is terrific social company. But Hitchens tends to play the bad guy in public. I laughed out loud when I saw Hitchens in his trenchcoat on the cover of one of his books. That image made you want to lock the doors and hide the children. Also Hitchens seems almost pathologically anti-religious. What rational person can assert, as Hitchens does in his book's subtitle, that "religion poisons everything"?
Shermer is the editor of Skeptic, columnist for Scientific American, and author of Why Darwin Matters and most recently The Mind of the Market. By contrast with Hitchens in his trenchcoat, Shermer looks like a guy you could trust to take your kids to the park. Shermer is almost congenitally optimistic, and he has none of that chronic nastiness that has come to define modern atheism. (Witness the temperament of some of the atheists on this blog, who provide excellent advertising for the psychological benefits of belief.) Shermer concedes that Christianity has done some good in the world. When asked if religion is a force for good or evil, he answers, "Yes." By this he means that religion is good when it does good and evil when it does evil. Shermer concedes that atheists can be vicious and draw their inspiration from atheist ideologies.
I first debated Shermer at Oregon State in October 2007. Then we debated in Washington DC at George Washington University. Our third and final debate for the year came December 9 at Cal Tech University in Pasadena. The third debate, moderated by the religion editor of the Los Angeles Times, was certainly our biggest and probably our liveliest encounter. There were more than a thousand people in the audience. I understand that lots of Cal Tech professors, and a couple of Nobel laureates, were present. Given the venue, the crowd was disproportionately scientific and technical.
The topics were "Is Religion a Force for Good in the World?" and "Can We Be Good Without God?" The debate ranged widely, however, and included discussions of the compatibility of science and religion, how science supports or undermines theism, etc. My favorite part of these debates is the cross-examination, when each side gets to pose questions to the other. I'm going to be posting on this debate over the next few days, each post accompanied by video footage. So here is the first segment, with me going first and attempting to set the agenda for the evening. Enjoy.
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Debating Michael Shermer at Cal Tech
Posted Jan 16th 2008 1:20AM by Dinesh D'Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Controversy, Atheism
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Reader Comments ( Page 5 of 42)
61. mac,
Certainly, wouldn't bother to answer if I didn't. Don't mess with words I don't mean.
Rita
Rtia at 12:54PM on Jan 16th 2008
62. Botts
How are you?
I was only messin' with Rita.
Mustard washes off, right?
mac at 12:54PM on Jan 16th 2008
63. mac,
its like pontulous pilate as jesus,"what is truth"? if you doubt the truth, and jesus said he was the truth then why do you doubt it. he did miracles to prove he was the truth, he showed us the love of the father to show us the truth, he died and rose again to show us the truth. and you know what the un-believers did they killed him for his trouble. and you know what the un-believers do today? they doubt the truth with more viscous certainty than ever before. and to beat all they do it in the name of truth. in the name of proof. in the name of science or whatever. the deny the truth and as romans says "the believed the lie" now the huge question to answer here is what was the lie? it does not say they believed a lie but the lie. what do you suppose the writer is referring? now thats a question to ponder
brian at 12:56PM on Jan 16th 2008
64. brian
You angered me last night, Idn't care to talk with you today, for fear of what I might say.
Suffice it to say: I DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF YOUR RELIGION!!!
mac at 1:02PM on Jan 16th 2008
65. Crisco is the only thing I know to get mustard out, mac.
Linda at 1:03PM on Jan 16th 2008
66. Crisco is the only thing I know to get mustard out, mac.
Linda at 1:03PM on Jan 16th 2008
67. You know guys sometimes I worry about the sanity level on this blog. Mokele gets out there and that's expected. Somber, really needs the understanding and help from someone who can understand the problems she has on her level. Poor ole' Clif is just ate up. Botts, is a questionable but, still think his heart is in the right place. Linda, well she's Linda. I as a Chrisian have been instructed by my LORD to let people know about his love and peace and salvation. That's it!!!! No big agenda, no Christian taking away your freedom of speech or your way of life. Not interfering with your voting but, I do think it has been the other way around due, to the separation of Church and State. I also, am going to be one Christian that is going to give you the opportunity to get the message. What you do or don't do with the message is entirely up to you. Rita
Rtia at 1:05PM on Jan 16th 2008
68. Ray,
Making peace with brian is like carrying a wet stick of dynamite across a field on a hot day. It may never blow... but it could... at any moment. You should hear what he has to say about about atheism as a boil, and how they should all move away to Africa.
Mokele-Mbembe at 1:06PM on Jan 16th 2008
69. Here's what I find interesting:
The Global Peace Index ranks countries in order from most peaceful to least peaceful. The US is ranked 96 out of 121. The #1 most peaceful country in the world by all measure is Norway, which, after a survey done in 2005 was declared the least religious country in the west. (almost 50% believe in some sort of life force, but not the god defined by christianity, the rest are protestants and non-believers)
(Here is the link: http://www.visionofhumanity.com/rankings/)
One major factor in reaching a state of peace is said to be education. Norway's educational system, of course, is nearly flawless.
Denmark, Sweden and Finland are also in the top ten, so Skandinavia leads the pack (together with #2 New Zealand).
Sweden, as an example, is a kingdom, however, like the rest of Skandinavia considered to be liberal. Environmental matters take priority in policy making in all those countries.
So it appears to me that those countries are doing well and are peaceful, because they GET IT. They put education, preservation and individual rights before any religious doctrine. Their lives are not ruled by religion. The leaders get it, the people get it. Political corruption is minimal.
We also have #5, Japan. No christianity there, but as a collectivistic culture, the benefit of the masses is always of great consideration.
Shinto and Buddhism have been the two major religions for centuries. In many ways, they complement each other. However, religion does not play an important life in Japanese every-day life. Traditions are still practiced, of course, but there are other priorities. A big one is education. See the trend here?
I am inclined to believe that a country that values education and respects its environment, a country that can see past the me-me-me and keep religion out of public life is bound to be a more peaceful country.
For starters, our educational system is basically crap, everything is about the individual, those who care for the environment make up a tiny percentage and those who are forcing religion into public life are gaining ground.
If Christianity is so great and America has the largest Christian population of any country (also the most spin-offs by the way), then why are non-Christian countries and especially secular countries performing so much better? They are healthier, happier, more peaceful. All history aside, someone please explain that to me.
emma at 1:07PM on Jan 16th 2008
70. emma,
Yeah, let's call on Norway the next time disaster strikes. Or lets call on any of those countries. I'd wager none would answer the call for help. We are a super power, we have always been and with God's help we will continue to be. Why do you think we have come such a long way in such a short time. Was it by accident that we have won every war that has been pushed our way? When the world becomes a disaster zone we are always out there to send help in one form or the other. Next, time you are involved in a natural disaster go ahead call Norway, Denmark or all of those closed door countries and you will find definately no one at home. Rita
Rtia at 1:15PM on Jan 16th 2008
71. Jesus, his dad, and the ghost are INVENTIONS of religion.
mac at 1:15PM on Jan 16th 2008
72. Rtia
Perhaps Norway could have done a worse with Katrina?
mac at 1:18PM on Jan 16th 2008
73. Dinesh - "Theists regularly admit the negatives done in it's name..."
That may be true of some theists, but the problem with christians is that the only time they admit to negatives done by christians, they claim that said christians aren't really christians in their hearts.
Way to take responsibility... geeze.
Ryan Anderson at 1:20PM on Jan 16th 2008
74. Rita; we have not always been a superpower. Infact we were not a superpower until after WWII.
That's a solid 75% of America's existance that we've not been a superpower.
Start mixing nationalism with religion and you've got trouble!!!
Ryan Anderson at 1:23PM on Jan 16th 2008
75. Mokey makes sense in post 31, but I expect nothing less from him
mac at 1:24PM on Jan 16th 2008