31. @ brian..

John Adams said, and might say to you, "“Howl, Snarl, bite, Ye Calvinistick! Ye Athanasian Divines, if You will. Ye will say, I am no Christian: I say Ye are no Christians: and there the Account is ballanced. Yet I believe all the honest men among you, are Christians in my Sense of the Word."

And believe you me, Adams would not have found you to be one of those honest Christians. His kind of Christian was more like Botts's.

not-pboyfloyd at 6:00PM on Feb 27th 2008

32. For brian, the simpleton, and Monty:

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in Norman Cousins, In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (1958), p. 108, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Of course there are many more.

PART DEUX:

"... most hospital were founded by christians,orphan homes by christians,foster homes by christians, help for the homeless are typically on every churches plate in some form of giving. ... most churches have food banks. toys at christmas, most churches i know give to children on the community from which they serve. churches do it better than your solution which is goverment wellfare. and you call yourself generous??? would you please. cloaked in tolerance of coarse

brian at 5:46PM on Feb 27th 2008"

Please tell me brian, how many of these good christian institutions do you volunteer your time in? How about money? Do you donate food to any of these food banks on a regular basis? Don't take credit for what the real followers of Christ do.

If your faith takes over the government, then wouldn't what the churches do for the public be government welfare?

Is "cloaked in tolerance of coarse" your new catch phrase?

K at 6:06PM on Feb 27th 2008

33. floyd,

i thought you left for cuba? delta's waiting. i need no lecture from an atheist as to what a chistian should or should not be. you saw off the limb your hanging on.

K said john adams was not a christian. john adams was a devout a christian as ever walked. he was the most instumental of the founding fathers. i find the atheist revision of history particalarly deplorable and down right carp,cloaked in tolerance of coarse

brian at 6:09PM on Feb 27th 2008

34. k,

i ahe volunteered a plenty and given money countless times and helped people in need because people have helped me in need. i have helped people find homes.food,clothes, you name it. taken care of a totally blind guy for two years who was mean and hateful as all get out. again i need no lecture from an atheist about my fellow man. i need no atheist telling me as a christian how i shoulod live when you deny the very one you owe your next breath to. no,compassion for everyday people is the most rewarding of all things. dealing with arrogant atheist who want to act so smug and tolerant when in reality they are far from it should make a sailor cuss. its your thinking that is rotting carp, not you personally. why personally i am sure you atheist are great. but your world view is hopeless drivel cloaked in tolerance but its all a lie thats all

brian at 6:16PM on Feb 27th 2008

35. I'll let you in on a little secret brian, the 'internets' or 'interwebs' as you probably imagine 'they' are called, apparently has these 'tubes' that connect around the world.

On the other hand, just because some celebrity or other says something doesn't imply that everyone that you don't like what they say agrees with that celebrity.

I have little tolerance for hypocrites, brian and I think that you were lumping 'founding hospitals and orphanages' in with 'toy-giving' to make yourself grander since I believe that you give kids toys.

This doesn't make you a hospital founder or an orphanage founder... you just gave some kids some toys, brian.

The truth about John Adams's beliefs are not what you say. Go here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views
..or most likely hundreds of other sites too and you will notice how wrong that you can be.

A person calling themselves a Christian is not what YOU would call a Christian if they deny miracles, isn't that right brian-cloaked-in-tolerance?

not-pboyfloyd at 6:28PM on Feb 27th 2008

36. Wow; who would've thought such a tasteful tribute to such a great man would engender such strife among posters?
The man is dead! Let him rest in peace.

fanmanaf1 at 6:32PM on Feb 27th 2008

37. Bill Buckley was a mammal.

not-pboyfloyd at 6:47PM on Feb 27th 2008

38. this arab is stupid and a fag

rob at 7:38PM on Feb 27th 2008

39. floyd,

read something enlightning,ot wikopedia. try david mccullough, he wrote an easy to remember book, entitled,John Adams. he won a pulizer prize for his work. read all 600 plus pages and then tell me if john adams was not a christian. then and maybe then we can have an honest,not revionist,discussion that would help you understand. don't be decieved its not worth the time

brian at 7:50PM on Feb 27th 2008

40. floyd,

"A person calling themselves a Christian is not what YOU would call a Christian if they deny miracles, isn't that right brian-cloaked-in-tolerance?

not-pboyfloyd at 6:28PM on Feb 27th 2008

miracles happen just look at your ignorance, thats a miracle. thats out of the ordinary since most believe in some God. you would be an aberration yes? God can do as he pleases without having to prove himself to pompous atheist who cloak themselves in tolerance but strangely have no tolerance for their very creator. and you have a problem with hell because of that? or heaven for that matter. don't forget delta

brian at 7:53PM on Feb 27th 2008

41. Floyd,

I read the article on Wikipedia and felt it summed up quite nicely Adams' religious views. He was not an orthodox believer (in anything) and he loathed the Catholic Church, but he was a believer. Probably more in a philosophical sense based on Christ’s moral teachings, but he definitely believed in a "Creator". I think the statement made against Paine says a lot: "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will." He was also incredibly arrogant, haughty, temperamental, verbose, and brilliant, and people like that often say and write things that appear to contradict each other, which is why I think so many people disagree on the religious leanings and beliefs of many of the founders.

Monty at 8:41PM on Feb 27th 2008

42. brian says, "God can do as he pleases..."

Not true brian, there are no gods, not even one.

If you believe shit like that you 'open your mind' to all kinds of silliness, like John Edwards 'cold reading', Prophet Peter Popoff's miracle cure water or Benny Hinn's 'casting out' AIDS and pat-on-the-head cure.

You have to believe that it is possible to divine the future, sorcerers and sorceresses, ghosts and whatever unicorns, leviathans and such were.

You are stuck believing that dead bodies can come back to life.

The proof of any of these things are faith (belief without evidence), movies and television shows.

Hey brian, if you have faith in Benny Hinn's power why don't you try it, he might fix your broken skepticism for you... just a thought.

not-pboyfloyd at 9:03PM on Feb 27th 2008

43. floyd,

you know i enjoy the banter but can i not a believer and you be a pagan? a non-believer, a lost soul? i mean you guys have plenty of arciac names for christians. so let us all have the space to just float along in the bliss. as botts would say there is no agenda. he hates the irs but there is no agenda. as the beatles said "imagine", just imagine and presto no country no religion nothing to live for nothing to die for. but as john lennons son julian said that john treated him like shit!! makes me imagine what kind of dad he was. i know already "only brotherhood of man"

brian at 9:30PM on Feb 27th 2008

44. whatif,

first my complaint about liberals has nothing to do that much with politics,its the liberal agenda of the courts, the media, the trash we export and the whatever goes mentality we have in this country. we were a nation founded on principals of honor,decency,morality,virtue,integrity. now we all cover our backs because liberality has poisened our country. there are many more ills than abortions and homsexuality for sure. do we as a country have an obligation to our elderly? yes. do we have an obligation to the sick?yes. are they moral issues? yes. are they social issues.of coarse.

we as a country have strayed away from the principals that made us great. we have no back bone anymore. we have no fight,no resolve. except for our own little personal freedom to live as we choose and demand everyone get happy. you think our educational system suffers from lack of funding? it suffers because half of marriages end in divorce and we have a dysfunctional family. to name a few ills. moral go way beyond those two things you mentioned .here on this blog i think most of the athesit are gay and therefore defensive. so it becomes a major issue. i think helping people is done most effectively at home first,not the goverment. since when did the goverment occupy the place of care giver for all the social ills of society? why should it? why should you think gov. is here to fix or support all our problems. goverment was never intended to operate in the capacity liberals demand and cry for. goverment is enept in these areas.

brian at 10:03PM on Feb 27th 2008

45. whatif,

and to add i took care of a blind man who liived alone. he could not see anything but light and dark. i would bring him breakfast and lunch everday. he did not want to go to anursing home and he had no family except a second cousin who stole 60,000 from him and the womans husband was a church of christ preacher. the man had no insulation in the walls of his house because the builder apparently did not do it. when your blind your at the mercy of others. well i tore out all the sheet rock in his house and insulated the walls and the re-did the sheet rock and then put new windows in his house. i learned alot from taking care of that man. i learned about what its like to be blind,to be needy, to care for someone who could do nothing for you. but he was a rather mean man because so many had taken advantage of him. his trust level was low. you know what i got for the two years? nothing,not even a thank you from him. but that was ok, i knew it was more for me than him. i do not say this to toot my horn,i say it because society is too busy to take care of people and they want the goverement to do it to ease their minds i guess. so to here liberals speak of what the goverment needs to do is crap. its what people need to do,don't depend on goverment they only take

brian at 10:15PM on Feb 27th 2008