We've all heard of Black History Month, but have you heard about Atheist Bashing Week? It was Atheist Bashing Week for me as I did three debates over the past seven days with a new crop of leading atheists.
First on Monday April 21 I debated philosopher Walter Sinnott-Armstrong at Dartmouth before a large crowd. The 500-seat auditorium was full so they used an overflow room, which had hundreds more watching on a big screen. This was a scholarly debate in which Sinnott-Armstrong distanced himself from what he portrayed as the crude atheism of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. Against this village atheism, well represented among atheists who comment on this blog, Sinnott-Armstrong offered a more dignified atheism that he said recognizes the accomplishments of Christianity. In one revealing moment he event said schools and colleges should teach students that the crimes of Christianity, like the Inquisition and the Salem witch trials, pale before the crimes of atheist regimes like those of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. Overall this was an elevated debate, one of the more high-toned ones I've participated in.
Then on Tuesday April 22 I debated Dan Barker of the Freedom from Religion Foundation at Harvard. Here the audience was smaller, because Harvard is launching into final exams. But the debate was very sharp and lively. We didn't do the traditional opening statements followed by rebuttals and cross-examination and so on. Rather, a student panel posed questions to both of us, and we each answered, with the other person than having a chance to reply. This format suits me very well, and I found myself being able to develop arguments about epistemology and science more fully than in other formats. Later the atheist students who organized the debate complimented me on my performance, and one said that I had made numerous arguments that he had never thought of, and that were compelling him to rethink (although not abandon) his atheism.
Finally on Friday April 25 I debated the controversial Princeton philosopher Peter Singer at Biola University. This was the biggest event, with more than 2,500 in attendance. Since Biola is a Christian campus, the majority of those present were believers, although atheists were represented too. The Christian students treated Singer extremely well, which is not always how theists are received when they show up on secular campuses. I went first and focused on Singer's extreme views, such as his proposal that parents be allowed to kill their children up to the age of 28 days. Singer also thinks America and the West can learn from non-Western societies, not to mention ancient Greece and Rome, where children were routinely killed at much higher ages. Oddly enough this champion of infanticide and euthanasia also favors animal rights!
If this seems like a strange combination, the apparent paradox is resolved when you discover Singer's logic. Singer argues that we human beings are Darwinian primates. We are on a continuum with the other animals. It is Christianity, Singer charges, that came into the world and elevated human beings on a pedestal. It is Christianity that proclaimed that man is in the image of God, and that creation is for man's benefit. These ideas gave rise to the special dignity of man and human rights and moral principles such as "It is wrong to deliberately take human life." Singer thinks that now that we know God is dead, we should get rid of these principles and replace them with utilitarian considerations more in keeping with our animal nature. In a sense Singer is taking up Nietzsche's challenge--to rid our civilization not only of the Christian God but also of Christian morality--and his homicidal conclusions, which many people find horrific, are only a working-out of his atheist logic.
Surprisingly Singer didn't want to talk about any of this during our debate. In a way I can see why: who wants to defend killing three-week old infants in the presence of a largely-Christian audience! Instead Singer wanted to argue about why a just God allows suffering in the world, not only the suffering of children but also of animals. I didn't want our debate to be like two ships passing in the night, so I happily engaged Singer on those issues. He is a lucid and gentlemanly debater, and he complimented me for eschewing Bible citations in favor of reason and logic and history and science in developing my arguments. I praised him for having the guts to come to a Christian campus and debate me, quite a contrast from the invertebrate Richard Dawkins who seems terrified to take me on even at his native Oxford.
All these debates will soon be up on the web. I have now debated six leading atheists--Christopher Hitchens, Michael Shermer, Daniel Dennett, Walter Sinnott-Armstrong, Dan Barker, and Peter Singer. Hitchens and I already have a couple of rematches scheduled, and Singer has agreed to a second debate on the East Coast. I am also planning a debate next year with Harvard cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker. The mathematician John Allen Paulos, author of the new book Irreligion, has approached me about debating and we are looking for the appropriate venue. Over the next few years I am hoping to assemble the most extensive existing archive of "God v. Atheism" debates. Many churches are already showing these debates in order to educate and instruct believers. I wonder if atheist groups will have the confidence to air them at their conferences.
So far no takers though. And my challenges to Dawkins to step into the arena have only met with pathetic rationalization: "Richard is simply too busy and smart to debate you Dinesh." Busy doing what besides being caught with his pants down by Ben Stein? And I guess he's smart because he doesn't want to risk further embarassing himself and destroying his public reputation! Won't it be hilarious if the "party of faith" is unafraid of opposing arguments while the "party of reason" cannot withstand the arguments of its critics? This is what Henry James might describe as a most interesting turning of the screw.
Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 60)
1. Dinesh has quite an impressive hit list. It’s interesting that the less prominent atheists would want to take him on in debate after he has already gone toe to toe with the best of the best and has even prevailed. Good work, Dinesh. I look forward to all your future debates and wait for these recent ones to be posted online. Some of the best entertainment on the internet that I find are your debates in which you decimate your opponents.
Bryan CRT at 2:30AM on Apr 28th 2008
2. I'm sorry, what did you expect? For Dinesh to come to his blog and say 'Well darn, I went to go debate those atheists but I just couldn't do it. They just had a few points I couldn't shake and were really on the ball. Too bad god didn't help me have a more convincing argument.' Right. Time to open a ski resort in hell if that ever happens.
Of course the atheists he praises he calls provincial and quaint. Oh, dead wrong, but weren't they so nice to point out that non-theistic regimes rife in autocratic and totalitarian principles killed people to! They didn't hold us to the fact that we killed people on no more substantial evidence than they float in a lake.
You think that's atheist bashing? Try the dark ages and the middle ages, where being an atheist, agnostic, deist, or otherwise 'non-believer' gave the church the right to kill you. Now that's atheist bashing. You, mr. dinesh, were speaking words. Were polls given before these debates? Were more given afterwards, where people could say if they changed their minds or not? I'd like to see the data, if you please.
Because no amount of debate or chest thumping and crowing victory is going to convince me. You, as every single theist before and after you, have yet to present to me a single conclusive bit of tangible evidence to your claim that there is a god, let alone a christian god filled with hypocracies and viciousness. If God wanted me to believe in him then he could do so by presenting a natural phenomenon that clearly violates the laws of the universe. He seemed so pleased to have angels appear with burning bushes in the past but he seems woefully mum now that people have the ability and the protection to question his existance.
If I were God, I could do so much better.
Somber at 3:28AM on Apr 28th 2008
3. Luke 18:12 -
"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Important words for a believer, but ones Dinesh D'Souza and what appears to be his twin, BryanCRT ignores in favor of bloating their ego with pride and self-exaltation.
Dinesh writes:
".... have you heard about Atheist Bashing Week? It was Atheist Bashing Week for me......."
....So-called "believer" Dinesh D'Sousa at his best again, when he's not gay "bashing" (his word, and one he clearly relishes) he's boasting about atheist "bashing" all the while still not proving a creator who created itself, that has always been without any rational explanation of "how". Dinesh yet again, full of *pride* and bragging about his favorite topic - himself. He stoops lower with what appears to be yet another sockpuppet proxy:
"BryanCRT"
In doing a quick google search for 'bryan crt" along with " Dinesh D'souza" I can only find few webpages where a bryan crt uses such glowing terms in his worship for the all-mighty Dinesh.
The search hits reveal a "bryan crt" who actually displays Dineh's "Bill O'Reilly style" agression, but in far less self-flattering language under the BryanCRT proxy:
7. Maybe you should take your head out of your rectum before posting such a hateful comment targeted towards Christians.
Bryan CRT at 7:30PM on Feb 13th 2008
Like Dinesh, he fails to see the irony of his own "hateful comment".
This smacks of the other sockpuppet proxy "Chris Hawk" who used the same style, syntax and grammar. When called on it, Hawk quickly disappeared and hasn't returned since as far as we can see.
But it's not only the freakish style that's telling, it's the psychology and egocentrism that is sickenly familiar, as its easy to notice trademark Dinesh catch-words that are consistently hostile and militant, with no shame, no remorse, and never the pretense of an apology.
From "Bryan crt" -
".....impressive *hit list*.
- Same combative, aggressive, childish nonsense that the world witnessed from Dinesh's ex girlfriend, Ann Coulter. Since when is a "hit list" an "impressive" thing. If would have no respect for any "atheist", "agnostic" or any religion who bragged about a debate "hit list". Honest people don't need "hit lists". That's akin to taking authority as truth, instead of truth itself as the authority. We have yet to see any "truth" regarding Dinesh's notion of creation, nor has he been patient enough to teach anyone - he's too busy mocking other viewpoints and making "hit lists" or worse, as he put it, "bashing" people. Who's next on the bashing list? Most of the billion plus "infidels" in China ? Most of them don't believe in the D'Souza creator.
"....gone "toe to toe" with the best of the best and has even prevailed".
- The type of eerily similar self-dillusional, self-aggrandizing pat on the back we've seen from Dinesh for years.
"...best entertainment....are your debates in which you decimate your opponents".
- Typical contentious school-yard-bully-style we've seen from Dinesh, often degrading himself to the level of a cat fight with thug jargon added for bad measure
- "hit list" - "toe to toe" - "decimate" "opponents".
How about "facts", "evidence" "burden of proof" "peer-reviewed findings" for YOUR (Dinesh) conclusions and claims.?
One can doubt if the following scripture will help Dinesh D'Sousa evolve towards a spirit of patience and understanding in teaching us lowly, misbegotten "atheists" towards a clearer light to his god. We, the "atheists" to his god who number in the billions the world over. But hope is my only religion, and it is with hope that Dinesh and other self-proclaimed "Christians" think twice about the abomination of self-pride that leads to so much of their psychology of self-deception, which by default leads to the obsession of deceiving others. I would hope that we don't want to witness yet another person has succumbed to the Sean Hannity-like tunnel vision that keeps one's vision so narrowly self-focused for the majority of their life, and that maybe they can give pause to think longer about reason and evidence, instead of bragging about who can "bash" who the most with the less mercy...
But since many here are the "believing" and the faithful, and with special thanks to mentors Chris Aable and Eliyah, who I think would both "approve this message" I site what your own "creator" has asked of you, his followers. Take not that this is not talking about not only pride in the face of an all-seeing god, but pride in the face of everything, including those "lowly atheist" who you hopefully wish to win as friends and influence (?)
Proverbs 30:32 - If thou hast done foolishly in lifting up thyself, or if thou hast thought evil, lay thine hand upon thy mouth.
Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Obadiah 1:3 - The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground? 4 - Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith YHWH.
Proverbs 8:13 - The fear of YAHWEH is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Yahweh hates pride. Even a proud look is an abomination to Him.
Proverbs 6:16 - These six things doth YAHWEH hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 6:17 - A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 - An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 6:19 - A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that *soweth discord* among brethren.
Poor Dinesh and his ex girlfriend, Coulter, would be "decimated" if confronted at the gates with Proverbs 6:19.
A fellow brother (I *know* we're all related biologically, I don't *believe*) who subscribes to Christianity put it like this:
"Why does Yahweh hate pride so much? Well, is there anything that we really have to be proud of ?? Think of it, Yahweh created the heavens and the earth and all that is within....We must be careful when we say...We do this and that. It is Yahweh who gave us the breath of life. Remember Job?"
Job 38:1 - Then YAHWEH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 - Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 - Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Proverbs 26:12 - Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Proverbs 3:34 - Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth favor unto the lowly.
Here I am a "lowly atheist" (actually hundreds of Christians have called me a lot worse) but there is hope for me, for Yahweh loves the humble and opposes the proud (obviously, Dinesh and many his sockpuppets and "followers"). Of course, I am being fictitious, for I am not a believer, D'Souza is, and the bible I'm quoting is a the primary root of "Christian" religious belief.
1Peter 5:5 - Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for "YAHWEH resists the proud, but gives favor to the humble."
With pride...there is no room for Yahweh.
Micah 6:8 - He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YAHWEH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy Elohim?
Hmmm...mercy, such a noble gift that "Christ" had. Not that a debate should be about "mercy" and "bashing", and not that any Atheist has ever declared "mercy" to Dinesh D'Souza's self-dillusional claims of "decimation". But I suspect these points, like many other points of emotional intelligence and social intelligence, will be misunderstood or dismissed by Dinesh as similar points have been for years...yet...I still hope...with patience for those of his Ilk who think in such "bashing" terms.
Putting other people down (instead of their beliefs which can change and instead of their statements, which can be self-corrected) is another outgrowth from pride.
From a "Christian":
"I've met many a person that part of their personality was putting others down.. so that they might appear better and wise. They might even make false accusations against others.. so that they themselves appear righteous. Gossip often comes from pride. Pride causes strife in our homes." (Me - Terry - and when on the internet, causes strife in the world)
Proverbs 28:25 - He that is of a proud heart stirreth up strife: but he that putteth his trust in YAHWEH shall be made fat.
Ummm...I'm half way there with the proud part (I think pride has it's place in all creativity and accomplishments, but "made fat"?? The bible lists "gluttony" as an "abomination" many times. In fact, far more often than it mentions NONheterosexual (or gay, bisexual, transexual, transgender, etc.) sex, which Dinesh is obsessed with. Never mind that most heterosexual sex is not conducted strictly for procreation.
1Timothy 6:3 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words (the opposite of Dinesh's and Bryan CRT's words, because there is nothing wholesome about "bashing" and "decimating" no matter how "right" you think you are), ... 4 - He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 - Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is righteousness: from such withdraw thyself.
Luke 18:12 -
"Every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Important words for a believer, but ones Dinesh D'Souza ignores in favor of his ego.
Luke 14:7 - And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, 8 - When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; 9 - And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. 10 - But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. 11 - For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Even so, it is better to be humbled in this life.. than in the next! For all things hidden will come to light
Before I close, I do want to share a scripture that shows a different kind of 'pride'. (Again, I don't agree with it, but hey, I'm not practicing hypocrisy by stating I do or only picking out the parts I approve of to run my life by).
Jeremiah 9:23 - Thus saith YAHWEH, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 - But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am YAHWEH which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith YAHWEH.
Psalms 115:1 - Not unto us, O YAHWEH, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Poor, lost Dinesh. What's next? A sequel to Ann Coulter, your ex-lover's massive lie about half of America's population "Godless, The Church of Liberalism" ?? You've both been good at lying about the mind of god, as well as the hearts and minds of millions of hundreds of millions of "liberal" minded people the world over. Your tools have been, as Chris would say "sweeping generalizations, undigested slogans and blanket stereotypes". But you manage to even outdue those unsavory negatives and stoop to "Bashing". "Bashing", eh, Dinesh? I trust you've done a lot of pious good with the hours and days of your life (believe it or not, I have probably 10,000 hours of volunteer work for the homeless - just a point I make that all atheists are not half the beast that many make us out to be, and admittedly, I want to do a lot more) but if you haven't it would be because you've substituted your time for, as you confess, "bashing" over and above your time spent helping your god's millions of weak, poor and *really* "decimated" children.
TerryMadison at 5:48AM on Apr 28th 2008
4. DD,
In one revealing moment he event said schools and colleges should teach students that the crimes of Christianity, like the Inquisition and the Salem witch trials, pale before the crimes of atheist regimes like those of Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot.
glad to see you posted what i have been saying all along!!! good job and i hope you continue explaining the truth it can only help
"
brian at 7:19AM on Apr 28th 2008
5. http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
FORMER ATHEIST at 7:22AM on Apr 28th 2008
6. DD,
"The Christian students treated Singer extremely well, which is not always how theists are received when they show up on secular campuses."
surely you are not surprised by this? atheist seem very disposed to anger,hostility ,frustration,resentment,bitterness,rage,temper-tantrums,etc. all when confronted with the truth. the bible calls this the works of the flesh which bring about death.
brian at 7:23AM on Apr 28th 2008
7. DD,
Won't it be hilarious if the "party of faith" is unafraid of opposing arguments while the "party of reason" cannot withstand the arguments of its critics? This is what Henry James might describe as a most interesting turning of the screw.
very true!! it is indeed interesting that we as christians can defend our positions it is faith but it is reason. atheist tend to go into rages when pressed with truth,i do not know why.
keep up the good work,dd!!
brian at 7:28AM on Apr 28th 2008
8. Genes do not have a mind of their own. Genes do not adapt. They just are. The animal merely attempts to survive under the conditions. Outside pressures do not alter the DNA and no new structures are produced to qualify as mutational advance. Otherwise, in a round about way Darwinists are defending Lamarckism disguised in ambiguous language. The internal organization structure and the quality control nature of enzymes that is apart of establishing and maintaining organization within an individual cell is a powerful argument for design, and thus a Designer. The high level of interdependence within the biochemical components of cells demonstrates preplanned intelligence, as does the interdependence that exists amongst other unique organisms in established symbiotic relationships. All life arising from common ancestors is an irrelevant and an obsolete idea.
http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
THE POSITRON at 7:31AM on Apr 28th 2008
9. Brian, your lie is obvious and your deception is clear. Genocide is not done *because* the perpetrators are "athiest" - to the contrary, they often kill *other* athiest along with everyone else who is a "threat" to their government, much the way the self-described Catholic Adolf Hitler killed Jews, Athiest, Christians, anyone who got in his way - but most of his followers were faithful Christians before, during and after the regime, with even the Pope giving Hitler his blessings and giving Hitler's personal envoy to Poland a private audience. All this comparative nonsense aside, two wrongs have never made a right, and none of what you say turns Dinesh D'Souza's lies about atheism nor a "creator" into reality.
TerryMadison at 7:44AM on Apr 28th 2008
10. Brian, your blind biases are really making your vision very, very dark. You stoop to the same sweeping generalizations I detailed near the end of #3. -
" anger,hostility ,frustration,resentment,bitterness,rage,temper-tantrums,etc."?????
Do you see the irony of your own hypocrisy in the above vitriol? Seems you couldn't get enough hate-words out. But your hero Dinesh sure could, the following being a consistent example:
"The invertebrate Richard Dawkins". - Dinesh D'Souza (He uses it above and in at least one other posts, along with dehumanizing labels such as "Savants" to describe millions of those who don't subscribe to his whacked out theories. - Note here I attack a belief, statement or philosophy, not the person in total with childish labels or ad hominems. People can change their beliefs and correct their statements.
We know he's obsessed with Richard, because hardly a week goes by that he doesn't mention him several times, but to call one of his "creators" creation an "invertebrate" is not only anger, hostility and all the other venomous words you use, but is the ultimate in dehumanizing and demonizing someone who, ironically, most educated people would consider D'Souza's intellectual superior (thus far - people can change).
TerryMadison at 7:44AM on Apr 28th 2008
11. Genes do not adapt? Hmm good point, but mutations happen all the time. Some convey advantages some are deleterious. the ones that convey an advantage to environmental pressures win out. Sickle cell anemia, a point mutation conveys an advantage to sleeping sickness, thats why its still around.
Dennis at 7:51AM on Apr 28th 2008
12. Make that malaria, I haven't had my coffee yet.
Dennis at 7:52AM on Apr 28th 2008
13. The bible asks us to take every thought captive to Christ.
I think DD is doing this for our generation in the same way that CS Lewis did this for previous generations.
In the process he does (to use Brian's phrase) "decimate" a few atheists along the way - but i think this is collateral damage.
kumar at 8:01AM on Apr 28th 2008
14. terry,
good morning,
number one i did not lie. reading this blog one can see wht i said to be very true. in general the atheist here resort to anger,and those things listed above. as for my hero,DD is not my hero. he does however post some interesting remarks. at least he takes on the lie of atheism head-on. shoulder to shoulder,toe to toe. whether he wins anyone to christianity is the only debatable issue. the fact he takes on atheist and usually wins the arguments is what is atheist cannot handle. atheist will not change in spite of the truth. that is no lie
brian at 8:02AM on Apr 28th 2008
15. terry,
sorry, i did not mean to anger you or make you hostile towrds my view.
brian at 8:04AM on Apr 28th 2008