Last night in Orange County I had one of my liveliest debates with atheist Christopher Hitchens and the Jewish radio host Dennis Prager. The debate--a sort of Christian-Atheist-Jew slugfest--was held at the Bat Yahm synagogue in Newport Beach. There was a sellout crowd of 1,500, with about 400 turned away.
The debate was unusual in that it involved not two but three different perspectives. Hitchens was particularly harsh in his exchanges with Prager, at one point accusing Prager of covering up for anti-Semitism. My exchanges with Hitchens were consistently sharp but also mutually respectful, and later Hitchens told me that I am one of the most formidable debaters that he has ever faced. I predict this debate will generate huge interest when it is posted on the web. After the debate Hitchens joined my wife and me at the bar where we downed two bottles of Pinot Noir and solved many of the world's problems.
Since our debate focused on God as understood from a Christian, Jewish and atheist perspective, missing from the event was a Muslim perspective. This is a pity, because one staple item of atheist rhetoric is the equation of Islamic extremism with Christianity. In my cross-examination I pressed Hitchens on this issue, and will let viewers watch our exchange for themselves and make up their own minds.
We find the equation between "Islamic fundamentalism" and "Christian fundamentalism" not only among the new atheists but also in the popular culture. Several weeks ago Christiane Amanpour of CNN did her special on "God's Warriors." The premise: The Abrahamic religions all lead to extremism. So Amanpour did three segments, one on Islamic extremism, one on Jewish extremism and one on Christian extremism.
Striking to the viewer, however, was the strained attempt to equate the three. Islamic extremism featured the 9/11 attacks, the Bali bombing, the London bombing, the Madrid bombing, and the list goes on. What about Christian extremism? Well, there was Christiane Amanpour in desperate search for the Christian Bin Laden, the Christian Al Qaeda, the Christian Hamas, the Christian Hezbollah, the Christian state currently run along the lines of post-Khomeini Iran.
Poor Christiane came up empty handed. So she was forced to locate marginal groups which would be repudiated by 99.9 percent of Christians and try to pass them off as the Christian equivalent of the Islamic radicals. I was especially interested to find out that there is an old guy in the hills of Montana who wants to blow up the world in the name of Jesus. Too bad he's broke and doesn't have any teeth. Still, one day he hopes to get a job and carry out his nefarious plans. I suppose this is the closest thing to a Christian Bin Laden. We are all supposed to be very afraid of this man!
One of the new atheists very cleverly termed 9/11 a "faith based initiative." But the witticism conceals an intellectual sleight-of-hand. Bush merely wants the government to be able to support faith-based charities on the same basis as it supports secular charities. What happened at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon seven years ago can hardly be placed in the same intellectual category.
Of late some of the new atheists are backing off from their fraudulent analogy between Islamic extremism and Christianity. This is a powerful blow to the new atheism, because so much of its relevance came from its ability to surf on the wave of current events and interpret modern terrorism as the expression of a generic religious impulse. In reality Bin Laden is more accurately compared to an atheist despot like Pol Pot. I realize the analogy is not entirely fair--to Bin Laden! After all, Bin Laden's death toll (several thousand killed over a dozen years) doesn't come closer to Pol Pot's 2 million killed in the space of three years.
Besides, Pol Pot was a Little League atheist compared to Mao and Stalin, whose death toll was in the tens of millions. When it comes to mass murder in the modern era, Islamic radicalism simply cannot keep up with atheism.
Reader Comments ( Page 2 of 54)
16. Not that Mr. D'Souza cares, but I do love the way he cherry picks those horrific leaders and states he'll cite for their deployment of historical violence. If he has one shred of decency or true intelligence, I hope he will account for the American Indians, whose numbers today are roughly 10% of what they were when the first European settlers arrived. Or how about slaves? I guess it only rises to the level of genocide if you kill a certain percentage. And, by the way, I'd put Pol Pot and Bin Laden on this list of evil, too. Just so I can't be accused of giving quarter to the enemies of all things decent and neocon...
David at 3:51PM on May 2nd 2008
17. "What about Christian extremism? Well, there was Christiane Amanpour in desperate search for the Christian Bin Laden, the Christian Al Qaeda, the Christian Hamas, the Christian Hezbollah, the Christian state currently run along the lines of post-Khomeini Iran.
Poor Christiane came up empty handed. So she was forced to locate marginal groups which would be repudiated by 99.9 percent of Christians and try to pass them off as the Christian equivalent of the Islamic radicals."
Gee, its too bad Christine never heard of the internet were she could have connected with good Christians from the KKK, Aryan Nations and similar groups who continue to use murder and terrorism.
Or maybe she didn't think they were "real" Christians just as their counterparts here will claim.
busterggi at 3:59PM on May 2nd 2008
18. DD is a man who is in SERIOUS need of a hug. But who would at this point?
Mokele Mbembe at 4:00PM on May 2nd 2008
19. If you would like to red something that may be interesting, Sunday 4/27/2008 The Oregonian ran an article about the Lutheran church trying to increase its toehold in the state. The Lutherans were surprised that only 1 out of 3 Oregonians were members of any church. The article was an interesting read.
JefFlyingV at 4:12PM on May 2nd 2008
20. Cozy that, how the Klan and the Phelps can all be benignly omitted. Mr logic can't get around to the possibility that a person who believes in the man from Galilee can be naughty. Denial. If insincere revisionism and hoping no one notices is what your campaign is surviving on perhaps your arguments are resting on all the wrong angles. As Ray Kroc said it, sometimes you gotta be an SOB if you wanna make a dream reality.
Mokele Mbembe at 4:14PM on May 2nd 2008
21. Amazing.
A couple of weeks ago Dinesh blamed American lifestyles for the 911 attacks and now he’s saying Bin Laden aint such a bad guy after all.
I was in a public restroom stall the other day trying to take a dump but getting nowhere, when for some reason, the thought of Dinesh pooped (sorry I meant to write popped) into my brain, and wouldn’t you know it, the crap started flowing like logs in a river.
I started laughing which prompted my neighbor in the stall next door to ask me what was so funny so I told him. Well apparently, this gent was a big ole Dinesh fan and he took exception to my use of Dinesh as a laxative and told me why he thought Dinesh was the second coming of Jesus himself.
Well I just couldn’t let this poor bastard go out into the world burdened by such ignorance so I basically laid out my points plainly and methodically as to why I believe that Dinesh is a shameless self-promoting whore and you know I actually got through to him.
In fact, my arguments were so thorough and flawlessly logical that my unseen opponent felt compelled to tell me that I am one of the most formidable debaters that he has ever faced.
I have to hand it to Dinesh though, I saw a couple of examples on youtube of his “superior debating prowess” and I was impressed by his supreme mastery of the “if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullshit” debating technique.
And boy, is he ever animated during a debate. so much so that if I were as big a phony as Dinesh I might just pretend to like him in order to befriend him under false pretenses strictly for access to his cocaine connections.
Dragonprick at 4:26PM on May 2nd 2008
22. um.. why does it seem so hard to find christian radicals??? you have history of it (as the dark ages were already mentioned) and currently, you can't avoid it on TV! who is bombing abortion clinics? athiests? i think not. how about forcing underage girls to marry and have kids? there's no texas compound of athiests! and let's not even get into the rampant homophobia in america today... if the christians aren't 100% responsible for that, who is? athiests don't have a book that tells them "who should burn in hell"... radical christian extremism is alive and well, and frankly out of control in the US!
jeff at 4:37PM on May 2nd 2008
23. Fanman,
I may be starting a fire here, but what do you mean "pumping up the numbers" of the Salem Witch Trials? The Salem Witch Trials occured in America. Nineteen people were hanged. One was crushed to death for not confessing to witchcraft. In Europe, the numbers of the dead as a result of witch hunts is estimated between 12,000-60,000 and possibly more. They would burn people at the stake in groups, and many people would bring lunches and spend all day watching - it was entertainment. I don't have to pump up anything - that's 8th grade history.
K at 4:44PM on May 2nd 2008
24. DD is at it again! It usually takes me at least five seconds to find DD's rhetorical device "de jour"; a spurious argument, strawman, red herring, MacGuffin, deus ex machine, whatever you what to call it on that particular day. Today it only took 3 seconds because it was one of his old, tired arguments that he trotted out again. That being the claim that Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., etc were atheistic dictators as compared to theistic bad guys such as Bin Laden who DD invariably identifies as less harmful to the world than the former. Hence, the obvious conclusion…..here it is, drum roll please, wait for it, wait……atheism is really bad compared to theism! Ta Da!!!
The only problem, DD, is that these dictators and their regimes are not atheistic in the same sense that Bin Landen’s is theistic (Islamic). Stalin did not perpetrate evil “in the Name of the Non-Existence of God”. Mao did not kill millions because it was fulfilling his duty to not-God as laid out in the Great Book of Atheism. These were power hungry men who took advantage of societies during turbulent times to gain complete control, which invariably was enforced through military power. People obeyed Mao because he had a gun to their head not because he was a special representative of not-God and final arbiter of the wished of not-God on earth. I assume DD would classify North Korea’s regime as atheistic even though it has much more in common with a deistic, religion-backed government.
DD, as they say down South, “that dog won’t hunt”. A rational person won’t accept on face value your assertion that these ruthless regimes are the outcome or embodiment of an atheistic world view. Most atheists I know have a humanist view of the world which stresses reason and logic and belief in the potential for humans to be good on their own without the need to find that goodness in a religious text or tradition. That doesn’t sound like the basis for a despotic regime though the ability to justify any action, no matter how evil, on the basis of fealty to a supernatural being sure does.
John Galt
John Galt at 4:46PM on May 2nd 2008
25. Hmm,The Atheist and the Christian sharing a bottle of rare vintage together.Now that is something.Soon we will see Richard Dawkins and the Pope cracking jokes together...ha ha.
Seriously,Dinesh is quite correct about the atheist dictators,and the Islamic terrorists.Even then,he misses a certain point,which I am going to put in capitals..EVIL DOES NOT HAVE A FACE.EVIL ALWAYS TAKES ON DIFFERENT IDENTITIES.it is,after all the only way it can survive.If we knew evil in its true color,I doubt we would have much of it in the world today.
A word about 'Christian' atrocities;They serve as an example of the perversions that happen when someone does not follow what God says,and instead does his own thing.Thus religion is manipulated to serve man's goals,and evil results.Kind of like polluting a stream of pure water.
To atheists.Please stop disowning your evil thugs like Stalin and Pol Pot.Consider them as an example of how evil,if left unchecked can destroy a whole people.Remember,History is a warning to future generations.Learn from the evil atheist leaders that evil only hurts many people.After all,evil atheist leaders dont make atheisim evil.
mad african christian. at 5:03PM on May 2nd 2008
26. Dinesh,
The problem is that Christians will denounce anyone who calls themself a Christian but also does some heinous act, such as murder. The BTK killer was Christian. He used the church computer to send taunting letters to the police after his crimes. But he's not a "true Christian" so he doesn't count as Christian in the Christian community. If you are allowed to toss aside those Christians who DO kill, then atheists should be allowed to denounce Pol Pot, Mao, and Stalin as not "true atheists" since their acts were NEVER done in the name of atheism - they were done for power. I have heard every Christian I meet (except you) at one time or another say they are "not perfect, but forgiven" and that they still sin, but they still consider themselves Christian. A Christian who kills is still a Christian. A Christian who sins is still a Christian.
Christians are just people, and history has proven through the witch hunts, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc that they can be just as bloodthirsty. Why can't you accept that Christian people do bad things? Why can't you just accept that and try to make it right, instead of claiming it never happened or that 'so-and-so killed more people' as if that brings back the millions who lost their lives at the hands of the Church?
Why is this the 3rd or 4th blog entry about this same exact subject?
(I would be interested to know how much of Dinesh's millions go towards charity, or pools and mixed drinks.)
K at 4:56PM on May 2nd 2008
27. C'mon JFV; if I read my bible and call myself a Christian, that makes me a 'thumper'? I was hoping we weren't going to genaralize anymore.
Goddess, I thought it would take more than 15 posts to get into the witch trials again; c'mon, those numbers pale in comparison, but yes, there are a few whackos in any religion. Don't paint us all with the same brush, please.
fanmanaf1 at 5:00PM on May 2nd 2008
28. How many times can a person shoot himself in the same foot?
Mokele Mbembe at 5:03PM on May 2nd 2008
29. Well here is DD again trying to equate atheism to communism. Pol Pot's Communism abolished ownership of property, socialized all aspects of Cambodian life and restricted intellectual freedom thought or expression. Further, the regime outlawed religion, money, markets, and schools.
Well, this goes completely against the fundamentals of atheism which is, free thinking and skepticism an a continuous dedication to education.
Pol Pot never admitted to not believing in god, he did study at a Buddhist monastery and a Roman Catholic school and his only goal was to bring "real socialism" to Cambodia. He killed more intellectuals and physicians over those of religion and most people died from disease, starvation and slave labor. Pol Pot killed more people in the name of communism, not atheism.
Religion on the other hand had to spread and survive through the murdering of hundreds of millions in all recorded and unrecorded history. Each Abrahamic religion has a murderous past and though Christianity has evolved into a more humane religion, it now involves itself in politics more so than any other religion.
Fundamentals like Mike Huckabee wish to rewrite the constitution to be more acclimated with laws of the bible. They wish to regulate adult moralities, gays, gambling, adult entertainment, marriage laws, science education, the media, free speech and women's rights. They bomb abortion clinics and back Israel in attempts to push along the prophecies for a rebuilt temple to bring about the end of times. They fund Christian lawyers to write fancy laws to creep religion in the government. They bomb Iraq because they put their faith that god is on their side. They throw pamphlets in churches that blame secular America for society's ills and encourage citizens to seek political office. These were the dangers Ammapour reported when discussing Christianity's warriors.
goddess1prevail at 5:04PM on May 2nd 2008
30. fanmanaf1,
"Don't paint us all with the same brush, please."
I'm in total agreement there. What pisses me off about DD is that he does this so much he paints with a full-width roller. So many of his supporters say "You hit the nail on the head, Dinesh" just because they're christians, and don't bother or want to see his flagrant butcherings of basic history and discrete logic. You don't have to be an atheist to see the danger of this man.
Mokele Mbembe at 5:08PM on May 2nd 2008